S4 North Alternative

[High Level Kits]

I have a suggestion regarding Scalefour North, or the lack of it. I posted this elsewhere on the forum but couldn't even find it myself when I knew it was there so have tried here instead...

This was always the first outing on my calendar and I used to look forward to it immensely - the old S4 North team did a fantastic job, running a great event with a friendly atmos for 30 years or so. It's a show that's greatly missed and I'm very gratefull that they ran it so well, and for so long. Scalefour Crewe, as far as I can gather, is not intended as a replacement for S4North and will continue in its own right.

A few years ago - I think it was when S4N had to move out of the college and weren't sure where they would end up - I heard talk that the organisers had been approached by the York Show, or vice-versa, with a view to having a dedicated area at the racecourse all to themselves for P4 stuff. Things were a lot different back then, - there was a full, experienced team running the North show and they found a venue which worked well - so the idea was knocked back...

I'd like to put this forward for consideration again. Scalefour North was always a good show for me, and I think I cater for the typical P4 modeller and therefore can be used as a reasonably accurate barometer in terms of popularity. My rationale is as follows:

Geographically, York is pretty close to Wakefield so will have the same catchment area covering the far north, the east of the country and of course Yorkshire itself, plus Lincs and Anglia. There is now no dedicated finescale show on the east side of the country. With an ever-aging society membership, clogged up roads and iffy rail services, a trek across the awful M62 may be a significant deterrent.

Time-wise, whilst there were other biggish shows in early Spring, these are down south and I can tell you S4N punters tend to be a different set (for the above geographical reasons) and so there's no conflict here.

I know there have been problems finding organisers, but with a lot of the legwork avoided as the hosts would be doing this anyway, a smaller team could be employed.

Constructive dialogue between the societies would be helpful - EM have a Wakefield show in the Autumn and although it's very near to Scalefourum time-wise, attendance is reasonable. I think, this illustrates you can get away with two similar shows if they're geographically far enough apart, which therefor also suggests there's a limit to how far most people are prepared to travel.

Someone mentioned that when the idea was originally suggested, there was an issue about the entrance fees for York and S4 differing, but I can't imagine a workable solution couldn't be found. I've traded at York show and not done badly there, so it must already have P4 modellers attending therefor combining both shows might actually end up saving some members from having to pay for two tickets. It may cost a few quid extra to get in to the bigger venue, but P4 members would get to see the whole show, and it could be a very good opportunity to focus on recruiting new members with P4's finest on display.

From my recent, post-covid experience of trading, the numbers may be slipping and I hear about the possibility of amalgamations of S4 North and South, P4 and EM combined shows etc, so I'm just throwing another possibility into the mix for consideration and discussion.

I'd be interested to know anyone's thoughts?...

Chris.

[jjnewitt]

Sclafour North in Wakefield was a lovely show and it's a real shame that it's still not around. From Rumney Models point of view Crewe was a great show and hats off to the team to for organising it but I agree that it isn't a northern show, it's closer to me in Ross-on-Wye than High Wycombe is, and I'd still be interested in a new S4 orientated show in a more northern location.

I like the idea of the show within a show format for publicising the society, gather together a couple of P4 layouts and the society stand and hey presto, but I'm still not entirely sold on the idea from a traders perspective. I'm sure High Level could attend any show in the country if Chris wishes to but are they going to be bothered about the likes of Rumney Models, if they've even heard to me? Certainly, I've never had a invitation to the York show in the 10 years I've been going. Given it timing in the middle of the school Easter holidays I don't think I'd be able to do it anyway, though I do understand that's entirely my problem not anyone elses! The good thing about the stand alone society shows is that it gives the smaller 'small' traders a chance to connect with society memebers. Is that going to happen with a P4 enclave within a larger show?

Justin

[High Level Kits]

Hello Justin,thanks for the reply.

I would hope that you would see your usual customers, plus maybe a few new ones from this extended catchment area due to location and the attraction of the bigger event.

My proposal works on the assumption that P4 modellers are interested in railways, and not just P4, so would regard having seeing the bigger show as a bonus.

Chris

[jjnewitt]

I'd hope so too Chris.

I am open to the idea though and would be willing to give it a go timing and of course invitation dependant. I think there is definately still scope and indeed need for a northern show. I would say though that without a smattering of specialist traders a "show within a show" isn't a scalefour show. A few layouts and the society stand is good publicity but it doesn't make a Scalefour North or Scalefour South East.

Justin

[Tim V]

Persuading York to provide a 'small traders section' like Warley might be an idea, just finding someone to sponsor it might be a problem.

[High Level Kits]

Traders rely on each other's attendance to some extend, as a good selection of products makes the show a more attractive proposition. I'm more likely to sell a kit if the customer can walk across to Colin's stand and pick up the wheels at the show and a lot of customers come to me for gearboxes for kits they've just bought from LR Models, Judith Edge etc.

I don't know what the details of the original proposal were - if it got as far as an actual proposal even - but what I had in mind would be a sizeable area, totally separate, so the society could put on a show that was the equivalent of the old S4N. Anything too small wouldn't attract enough members or traders. It's all speculation and we may just get a polite but firm 'no thank you', but I'm suggesting it might be worth inquiring... So much as changed in the last few years and something that might not have worked in the past might now make more sense.


.

[Tim V]

Well, the North has been defined!
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... scientists

As such, the show has to be north of Watford Gap - which includes Birmingham! So here's to S4N in Warwickshire ...

[Noel]

Apart from the fact that machine-based learning cannot be classed as objective, the criteria used, according to the Guardian article, are also not in the least objective. It must be the silly season...

[Steve Carter]

Don't forget 'Scalefour Cumberland'

This was one of the first "shows within a show" held last November as part of Solrail 2022 and assisted by members of the Cumbrian Region Area Group (CRAGIES) with support from the Society and was very successful.
See viewtopic.php?f=98&t=8311&p=94962&hilit=Scalefour+Cumberland#p94962

'Scalefour Cumberland' is certainly in the North.

'Scalefour Cumberland' is on again this year as part of Solrail 2023 at Energus, Blackwood Road, Lillyhall, Workington CA14 4JW on November 18th and 19th. See https://sites.google.com/view/solrail/2023-exhibition

[mikeknowles]

Workington is right on the West Coast of Cumbria and is 177 miles (3½ hours) from my home in East Yorkshire so even further away than Crewe. As such then doesn't really serve as an alternative to Wakefield.

[Jeremy Good]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Workington is an "alternative to Wakefield" but it is another show where a member of the Society has been prepared to volunteer to host a Scalefour event which proved to be reasonable successful in its own territory - thank you Philip. The same is due to happen in Perth in a few weeks, Wells in August and Uckfield in October. These are all partnership events with existing shows.

Scalefour North in Wakefield is clearly a much-missed institution but it happened because there were people who volunteered to run a show which happened to be in Wakefield as that was geographically proximate to the Area Group who were willing to volunteer to run it.

Scalefour Crewe happened in Crewe because the Crewe Area Group were prepared to step into the breach and organise and run a northern show which, by all accounts and despite the best efforts of our transport system, football fixtures, strike action and so on, was an enjoyable weekend. The team put in a lot of work to make it happen against a challenging backdrop and the Committee are thankful that they, the exhibitors, the traders, the caterers and all the others involved made it work.

Whilst it would be great to be able to put on a show in Yorkshire/the North East this needs volunteers to make it happen and, as the Crewe team will be able to attest, it is a tricky process to get a new show established. As such, I think Chris' original suggestion is a good one to try and widen the exposure of the "Scalefour" brand even if we can't call it our own show and it is something we will be investigating further.

The dialogue about our shows and particularly a new Scalefour North has now been going on for a couple of years and despite that, articles in the Scalefour News and debate on the Forum we are no closer to having anyone who is willing to take on organising that show. The Committee will offer every support and assistance we can to anyone who takes this on, as I'm sure the Crewe team will confirm, but it isn't something that the Committee itself is able to take on and run.

The unfortunate reality of all of this is that shows are getting more expensive to host, there are fewer traders willing to attend and seemingly fewer people to pay to attend these events. This isn't just an affliction of Scalefour shows but seems to impact many of the finescale events.

I will be very happy to debate all of this at length over the coming months but the key fact remains, without a volunteer or volunteers to run a show in a specific geographic area we won't be able to hold a dedicated Scalefour show. If "partnering" with another organisation allows us to expand the reach of the Society into new areas that is something we are happy to support if it is the right show and the right location.

It will be great to hear from anyone who might be willing to consider getting a new show up and running in Yorkshire/the north-east but in the meantime there are shows in Perth, Wells, Workington and Uckfield as well as Scaleforum in High Wycombe in September that will be featuring P4 content and which we hope our members will be keen to support.

Jeremy

[Steve Carter]

To add to what Jeremy Good has said, Scalefour Crewe was a very good friendly show in a bright modern venue put on by a new volunteer team. The content on offer was balanced and, in my option, provided everything I would look for in a finescale show with a very similar relaxed, helpful atmosphere to that enjoyed at Wakefield over the past many years.

Brilliant catering as well, what was not to like?

I hope that the Crewe team are willing and the Society members are happy to give Scalefour Crewe the opportunity to establish itself as a "not to be missed" northern finescale show.

[kelly]

Perhaps contacting Wakefield MRS might be a useful place to start, see if a small section of their show might be possible?

Of course it is a smaller show by far than York, but it is in the right area, and would be a less complicated task to potentially get organised.

[davebradwell]

There is, of course, the EMGS show already established in Wakefield......or is that a problem for some?

DaveB

[Steve Carter]

There is, of course, the EMGS show already established in Wakefield......or is that a problem for some?

DaveB

[mikeknowles]

There is, of course, the EMGS show already established in Wakefield......or is that a problem for some?

DaveB

I was thinking along the same lines but was worried it may be considered as heresy!
There may be the situation now of too many shows chasing a, for now, diminished market due to the "cost of living crisis". Combining resources with other societies such as the EMGS would seem to make a lot of sense. The traders who attend S4 Society shows also go to the EMGS ones. Additionally the GOG hold a show in Barnsley (was Doncaster) so could possibly amalgamate all three into one giant extravaganza!
By the way my previous post in no way implied any criticism of the shows at Crewe or Workington. In fact Richard and the team at Crewe put on a fantastic effort despite the adversties thrown at them. We had a great weekend exhibitjng my layout there. It was just to point out that due to the distances involved they don’t for me make a viable alternative to Wakefield.

[kelly]

Additionally the GOG hold a show in Barnsley (was Doncaster)

My understanding is that this is a trade show rather than a public show? The 'public' show is held in Stafford.

[mikeknowles]

Additionally the GOG hold a show in Barnsley (was Doncaster)

My understanding is that this is a trade show rather than a public show? The 'public' show is held in Stafford.

All the GOG Shows are primarily trade orientated with a few layouts added to the mix. Again a number of the traders crossover between 4mm and 7mm scales. I'm sure they would find one large well attended show more financially viable to attending several smaller ones.
The shows are open to GOG members and non members.

[davebradwell]

Perhaps one step at a time as we haven't managed to combine 2 shows yet - the show within a show I see as slightly different.

DaveB

[Jeremy Good]

Ok, so now I am confused….

We want a show in Wakefield that has the same atmosphere/feel as the old Scalefour North but the show within a show concept doesn’t give us that, so why would combining it with a GOG or EMGS show give our members the old Scalefour North experience?

I understand the geographic issues but simply bolting us onto an existing show isn’t going to give the same “visitor experience” as a stand alone show. So how do we solve the conundrum?

Clearly this is something I am going to have to grapple with when I assume the role of Chairman so any thoughts and ideas would be gratefully received!

It is also no secret that I have had some initial discussion with EMGS about the possibility of joint shows but that in itself may cause practical issues, most of which aren’t insurmountable, around location/timing/management/finances and so on. There is also the question of whether this would be a popular decision to either Society’s members and traders especially when the particular feel Scaleforum/Scalefour North appear to be core to our Society’s DNA.

I’m sure you’ll all tell me what you think….

Jeremy

[davebradwell]

Wasn't the successful atmosphere of the original Scalefour North primarily down to the people who went regularly and a location that provided suitable facilities at a reasonable cost for a whole weekend and was in the right place for access. The actual layouts changed each year so they weren't the constant - success is about much more than the show.

I suggest we probably have more in common with the EMGS than the local club but I know nothing about them. We probably share most, if not all of our traders with EMGS.

DaveB

[Terry Bendall]

Ok, so now I am confused….

We want a show in Wakefield that has the same atmosphere/feel as the old Scalefour North but the show within a show concept doesn’t give us that, so why would combining it with a GOG or EMGS show give our members the old Scalefour North experience?

I can see why Jeremy is feeling confused. For some people Scalefour North was an event not to be missed and it seems that some (many?) would like it to return substantially in the same form to Wakefield as it was for many years. There is a very easy way for that to happen. All it needs is for a few people to get together and organise it.

At times I am sure that the Scalefour Crewe team thought it was a daunting prospect and wondered what they had taken on but they showed that organising an exhibition is not that difficult and success is possible. Time cionsuming yes, but not difficult.

Wasn't the successful atmosphere of the original Scalefour North primarily down to the people who went regularly and a location that provided suitable facilities at a reasonable cost for a whole weekend and was in the right place for access.

Sounds like a description of Scalefour Crewe to me! Lots of the regular visitors were there, we had very good facilities at a reasonable cost and in a venue that was no more difficult to access than Wakefield. (Train strike excepted but that would have affected Wakefield had we been there)

The only way that a Scalefour event will happen in West Yorkshire or any other location will be for people to organise it.

Terry Bendall

[Will L]

It does seem that for some, the real problem is the loss of Wakefield as a localisation. So the only solution that will really satisfy is to find a new team willing to do the job there. Any takers? Even then some of us would still need to make the sort of journey being objected to the other way.

Actually I think what we need would be a show in, say, Newcastle. Now that could comfortably come under the heading of Scalefour North.

[Lindsay G]

This is an interesting thread.

I'm not a lifelong modelling or S4 devotee - less than 20 years - but personally speaking, I have a lot of fondness for the S4N set up at Wakefield, particularly in the previous college building set within the park. The set up as a S4 event hits the mark for me. To be part of a larger event, in particular, a commercial based event would loose a lot, if not all, of that appeal. A joint event with the EMGS might actually be a good trial, joint but with perhaps separate bring and buys and break away sessions?? Lots of like minded individuals. Perhaps a boon for traders that appeal to both of these societies.

The location obviously depends on guys within that area wiling to take on the effort and responsibility, so it is to these individuals that we need to look and be dependent upon. From my personal perspective, living in Scotland, Crewe is getting too far South for me and I can't really see me wanting to make that journey for a supposed S4N event. The Wakefield location was good. York would be even better involving a single train journey, likewise Newcastle as mentioned by Will.

Trouble is that we will never find locations that suit everyone. Hopefully, we will settle on locations that suit the biggest audiences.

Lindsay

[jim s-w]

It does seem that for some, the real problem is the loss of Wakefield as a localisation. So the only solution that will really satisfy is to find a new team willing to do the job there. Any takers? Even then some of us would still need to make the sort of journey being objected to the other way.

Actually I think what we need would be a show in, say, Newcastle. Now that could comfortably come under the heading of Scalefour North.

Since the railexNE guys have downsized thier show to a more local affair and it was always one of the better shows anyway would it be worth a discussion with them about combining our collective efforts and bringing it back?