Brexit and exhibiting internationally
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Brexit and exhibiting internationally
Rather belatedly glancing down the list of layouts that would have appeared at this year's Scaleforum if it hadn't had (most sensibly) to be cancelled I noticed that the list included Vincent de Bode's P87 Cape-gauge De Graafstroom.
This is an excellent, almost outstandingly good, layout which I have had the good fortune to see a couple of times already at shows. It may be simple but the quality and realism of the modelling, not to mention the swan and sailing barge circulating on the waterway, make it very watchable.
Vincent has, of course, brought layouts from the Netherlands to Scaleforum before, notably the equally watchable Flintfield, so why did this listing merit my attention. The answer is that, post-Brexit, this would have been a mission impossible, the Customs' barriers have clanged down and, although most clubs and individual modellers have yet to realise it, trying to take a model railway layout across the Channel or North Sea for an exhibition has become an expensive and almost insurmountable bureaucratic nightmare.
In theory, the facility exists, one can apply for a Carnet de passage des Douanes which is, in effect, an insurance policy which undertakes to pay the Customs' duties and value added tax on any item listed which is intended to be temporarily imported but which is then not re-exported. Not only are such Carnets expensive but, understandably, they are very bureaucratic because every separate item included has to be listed complete with information on its country of origin and its Customs' category coding. Moreover, that literally means every item, each board of a layout, connecting cables, lighting rigs, control panels, display boards, stools, every item of rolling stock, any separate scenic items (swan, sailing barge!), and every single tool in every tool box, etc, etc.
Anything that makes the journey in only one direction, explanatory leaflets for giving to visitors, gifts for friends, purchases at the exhibition, even items lost or replaced, has to be declared separately as VAT and duty will be payable.
Finally, the actual Channel crossing will have to be booked as a freight movement, with extended reporting times to allow for thorough Customs' examination in each direction.
Although one could try to "get away with it", and one might just succeed with a micro-layout in a suitcase, the risks are high and one would be risking the confiscation of not only the layout and stock but the vehicle too.
This is an excellent, almost outstandingly good, layout which I have had the good fortune to see a couple of times already at shows. It may be simple but the quality and realism of the modelling, not to mention the swan and sailing barge circulating on the waterway, make it very watchable.
Vincent has, of course, brought layouts from the Netherlands to Scaleforum before, notably the equally watchable Flintfield, so why did this listing merit my attention. The answer is that, post-Brexit, this would have been a mission impossible, the Customs' barriers have clanged down and, although most clubs and individual modellers have yet to realise it, trying to take a model railway layout across the Channel or North Sea for an exhibition has become an expensive and almost insurmountable bureaucratic nightmare.
In theory, the facility exists, one can apply for a Carnet de passage des Douanes which is, in effect, an insurance policy which undertakes to pay the Customs' duties and value added tax on any item listed which is intended to be temporarily imported but which is then not re-exported. Not only are such Carnets expensive but, understandably, they are very bureaucratic because every separate item included has to be listed complete with information on its country of origin and its Customs' category coding. Moreover, that literally means every item, each board of a layout, connecting cables, lighting rigs, control panels, display boards, stools, every item of rolling stock, any separate scenic items (swan, sailing barge!), and every single tool in every tool box, etc, etc.
Anything that makes the journey in only one direction, explanatory leaflets for giving to visitors, gifts for friends, purchases at the exhibition, even items lost or replaced, has to be declared separately as VAT and duty will be payable.
Finally, the actual Channel crossing will have to be booked as a freight movement, with extended reporting times to allow for thorough Customs' examination in each direction.
Although one could try to "get away with it", and one might just succeed with a micro-layout in a suitcase, the risks are high and one would be risking the confiscation of not only the layout and stock but the vehicle too.
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
Bang goes any of our layouts visiting the continent.
I was lucky to take Clutton to Utrecht a few years ago.
Another loss to ... (stepping into politics here)
I was lucky to take Clutton to Utrecht a few years ago.
Another loss to ... (stepping into politics here)
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
And don't forget that any exhibition layouts from Northern Ireland can forget trying to exhibit in rest of GB too.
David
David
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
barhamd wrote:And don't forget that any exhibition layouts from Northern Ireland can forget trying to exhibit in rest of GB too.
.... or vice versa.
Also the Republic of Ireland, although in the Common Travel Area, is in the EU so crossing the Irish/Celtic Sea with a layout is a no no too - although layouts can move between the RoI and the Six Counties.
It is perhaps worth mentioning that you can attend an exhibition in the EU and be paid for working on a stand providing it is for a British company (eg Peco) and they pay you. Doing the same for an EU-based company (eg LRpress) would require a visa. Contrary-wise rules would apply for an EU-citizen working at a British located exhibition (unless they have rights under TWA).
Hasn't life become complicated, it's called sovereignty, I believe.
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
I am inclined to think that it is an emergent property of petit vindictive bureaucracy. Also, not exactly in the spirit of cooperation promised by EU politicians during the negotiations.
As always, the devil is in the details; especially when inserted by those of a jobsworth inclination, who prefer to make mischief by slavish interpretation, of rules, and not forgetting lots of paperwork.
Entirely predictable, given the years of campaigning to reverse the referendum decision during the transition period.
EU citizens are equally affected, so we can live in hope that this ridiculously horrible outcome can be put right soon.
As always, the devil is in the details; especially when inserted by those of a jobsworth inclination, who prefer to make mischief by slavish interpretation, of rules, and not forgetting lots of paperwork.
Entirely predictable, given the years of campaigning to reverse the referendum decision during the transition period.
EU citizens are equally affected, so we can live in hope that this ridiculously horrible outcome can be put right soon.
LesG
The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful
The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
It is actually a return to the precise situation that existed before Britain joined the (then) European Community in 1973. I actually worked in the ferry business then and was well familiar with Carnets de Passage, but model railway layouts didn't cross the Channel or North Sea for exhibition in those days so it wasn't an issue.
I personally don't see any way in which the Carnet process could be simplified, other than by Great (small-minded?) Britain returning to the Single Market, because two passages of Customs' borders, out and home, are inevitably involved and if one side were to "turn a blind eye" problems would inevitably occur in the other direction.
Finally, it is an interesting thought that if Scotland were to become independent and to rejoin the EU, all these problems would start to occur at the England/Scotland border too.
I personally don't see any way in which the Carnet process could be simplified, other than by Great (small-minded?) Britain returning to the Single Market, because two passages of Customs' borders, out and home, are inevitably involved and if one side were to "turn a blind eye" problems would inevitably occur in the other direction.
Finally, it is an interesting thought that if Scotland were to become independent and to rejoin the EU, all these problems would start to occur at the England/Scotland border too.
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
LesGros wrote:I am inclined to think that it is an emergent property of petit vindictive bureaucracy.
All known conditions for non EU countries Les. Most of which we were instrumental in implicating. Nothings actually changed so there’s no vindictive bureaucracy at all.
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
bécasse wrote:... I personally don't see any way in which the Carnet process could be simplified, other than by Great (small-minded?) Britain returning to the Single Market, because two passages of Customs' borders, out and home, are inevitably involved and if one side were to "turn a blind eye" problems would inevitably occur in the other direction. ...
Would it be sufficient to rejoin the EU customs-union? That seems politically achievable, whereas rejoining the single market is not.
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
bécasse wrote:Finally, it is an interesting thought that if Scotland were to become independent and to rejoin the EU, all these problems would start to occur at the England/Scotland border too.
It is an aspect which was pointed out post Brexit referendum in 2016, when the independence neverendum was given another boost.
Watch out for denials of this in the coming weeks, when the conference season kicks-off north of the Border.
- - - Great (small-minded?) Britain . . .
A view that media comment would suggest is widely held on both sides of the argument.
Coming back to the issue of interest to us; it is the excessive level of detail, and supporting documentation required, which is in need of being addressed. Hopefully good sense will prevail.
Truly, we live in interesting times.
LesG
The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful
The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
Interesting David Bécasse. As a result of reading that, what I would like to know is if someone is travelling from the UK to the EU or from the EU to the UK, as an individual, on holiday (forget about Covid), by car, on a ferry; at what point does what they are carrying, provided that it's not, drugs, guns, radioactive material or other obviously prohibited goods, cease to be luggage and become something that would be considered to be something being temporarily imported?
All the Best
Danny
All the Best
Danny
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
bécasse wrote:It is actually a return to the precise situation that existed before Britain joined the (then) European Community in 1973. I actually worked in the ferry business then and was well familiar with Carnets de Passage, but model railway layouts didn't cross the Channel or North Sea for exhibition in those days so it wasn't an issue.
I am not sure when this actually changed as we had to fill out a Carnet to take Bodmin to Holland in 1987 and every item had to be included. I took a
minimalist tool kit with me because of it. The biggest problem we had was actually with the UK customs on our return as the van was on the car deck when it should have been carried as freight, which took a bit of sorting out.
Regards
Tony.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
Plus ca change . . .
LesG
The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful
The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
HI all,
Intresting topic as I'm due to take one of of my layouts to the EU next year and I came across this on the GOV.UK website
which kind of goes against whats been put above....
Temporarily taking works of art, cultural objects, or other objects for exhibition to the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein
If you are taking your works of art, cultural objects, or other objects for exhibition temporarily out of the UK to exhibit in the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein, you will need to consider the customs requirements for each country you are visiting.
If the works of art or objects are in your baggage or a vehicle accompanied (‘accompanied’ – carried or taken by an individual in their personal baggage, or a vehicle, which have been transported by the individual throughout the journey), you may be able to use temporary admission to pay no duty on them by going through the green or ‘nothing to declare’ channel. You can do this if the works of art or objects are for personal or business use.
If your objects aren’t accompanied (‘unaccompanied’ - moved as freight by a haulier and/or transport operator where the individual is not present), you’ll need to consider using other temporary admissions procedures. These include:
an ATA Carnet – there is a cost for this
a duplicate list – there is no cost
If you don’t use an ATA Carnet, duplicate list, or other temporary admission procedures, you may have to declare your objects and pay duties on them every time you take them through customs.
If you are exporting objects of cultural interest over a certain age and value threshold from the UK, you will need to obtain an export licence from Arts Council England.
Now I'm happy to be corrected but my understanding from the above if your are not travelling with the items then you need the extra paperwork as they are then classed as goods/freight but if they are in the vehicle that you travelling in then its not needed. Depending on the country you are visiting.
Thanks
Simon
Intresting topic as I'm due to take one of of my layouts to the EU next year and I came across this on the GOV.UK website
which kind of goes against whats been put above....
Temporarily taking works of art, cultural objects, or other objects for exhibition to the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein
If you are taking your works of art, cultural objects, or other objects for exhibition temporarily out of the UK to exhibit in the EU, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein, you will need to consider the customs requirements for each country you are visiting.
If the works of art or objects are in your baggage or a vehicle accompanied (‘accompanied’ – carried or taken by an individual in their personal baggage, or a vehicle, which have been transported by the individual throughout the journey), you may be able to use temporary admission to pay no duty on them by going through the green or ‘nothing to declare’ channel. You can do this if the works of art or objects are for personal or business use.
If your objects aren’t accompanied (‘unaccompanied’ - moved as freight by a haulier and/or transport operator where the individual is not present), you’ll need to consider using other temporary admissions procedures. These include:
an ATA Carnet – there is a cost for this
a duplicate list – there is no cost
If you don’t use an ATA Carnet, duplicate list, or other temporary admission procedures, you may have to declare your objects and pay duties on them every time you take them through customs.
If you are exporting objects of cultural interest over a certain age and value threshold from the UK, you will need to obtain an export licence from Arts Council England.
Now I'm happy to be corrected but my understanding from the above if your are not travelling with the items then you need the extra paperwork as they are then classed as goods/freight but if they are in the vehicle that you travelling in then its not needed. Depending on the country you are visiting.
Thanks
Simon
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
[quote="dcockling"][i]Interesting David Bécasse. As a result of reading that, what I would like to know is if someone is travelling from the UK to the EU or from the EU to the UK, as an individual, on holiday (forget about Covid), by car, on a ferry; at what point does what they are carrying, provided that it's not, drugs, guns, radioactive material or other obviously prohibited goods, cease to be luggage and become something that would be considered to be something being temporarily imported?
My experience of customs around the world is that anything apart from "reasonable" amounts of clothing and toiletries for personal use can be defined as goods being imported if they feel like it, for example cameras and even mobile phones. Usually they are flexible on things that are clearly used and in use by the traveller, but if they take against you for some reason they are not. That is why there is a list of permitted amounts of taxable consumables such as alcohol.
My experience of customs around the world is that anything apart from "reasonable" amounts of clothing and toiletries for personal use can be defined as goods being imported if they feel like it, for example cameras and even mobile phones. Usually they are flexible on things that are clearly used and in use by the traveller, but if they take against you for some reason they are not. That is why there is a list of permitted amounts of taxable consumables such as alcohol.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
The UK is now a non-member of the EU; we are a 'third country', and so subject to all the rules that other non-members of the EU must observe. There's no discrimination involved. If you leave a club, you can't expect to be allowed to enjoy the benefits you used to have as a member (such as customs-free movement of goods, free movement of people, common environmental and food standards and all the other nasty rules that allowed this to happen).
This is what Brexit was intended to achieve, and it has succeeded beyond the wildest hopes of those who voted for it in 2016. The UK has cut itself off completely from Europe, and is once again a completely independent sovereign state, untramelled by all the arrangements that allowed freedom of movement, easy export and import of goods and all the other things that marked us out as a 'vassal state' [© Rt Hon Jacob Rees-Mogg PC MP]. The fact that this makes things difficult for British businesses and will cause endless difficulties for tourists travelling in either direction (once covid restrictions are entirely removed) is entirely irrelevant - we're FREE! FREE! FREE! d'ye hear?
As true patriots, none of us should actually want to take our layouts abroad. [Abroad is foreign - ugh!] Nor should we ever want to see any nasty foreign models here ever again. If you really must take a model railway abroad, there's always Iceland or Turkey.
This is what Brexit was intended to achieve, and it has succeeded beyond the wildest hopes of those who voted for it in 2016. The UK has cut itself off completely from Europe, and is once again a completely independent sovereign state, untramelled by all the arrangements that allowed freedom of movement, easy export and import of goods and all the other things that marked us out as a 'vassal state' [© Rt Hon Jacob Rees-Mogg PC MP]. The fact that this makes things difficult for British businesses and will cause endless difficulties for tourists travelling in either direction (once covid restrictions are entirely removed) is entirely irrelevant - we're FREE! FREE! FREE! d'ye hear?
As true patriots, none of us should actually want to take our layouts abroad. [Abroad is foreign - ugh!] Nor should we ever want to see any nasty foreign models here ever again. If you really must take a model railway abroad, there's always Iceland or Turkey.
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
(Not that I agree with you, Martin, but I enjoyed the post)
Regards
Noel
Noel
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
Presumably Vincent de Bode would have looked into all this if he was bringing the excellent De Graafstroom to Scaleforum. I wonder what his findings/conclusions were?
Rod
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
Noel wrote::D
(Not that I agree with you, Martin, but I enjoyed the post)
I confess that my wife and I still have EU flags displayed in our house, and a notice that says "Don't blame us! We voted Remain"
Maybe re-entry to the EU is not a realistic prospect (for the next few years at least) but a future government, sooner rather than later, will have to negotiate a much more amicable relationship with the EU, in order to remove the obstacles to trade and movement that Brexit has caused. Then perhaps we can hope that exhibition layouts can cross the Channel in both directions as easily as they did before Brexit.
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
Rod Cameron wrote:Presumably Vincent de Bode would have looked into all this if he was bringing the excellent De Graafstroom to Scaleforum. I wonder what his findings/conclusions were?
I rather assumed that he didn't realise the extent to which things had changed. After all, he had brought layouts over before without any problems and, while I don't know for certain about the Netherlands, certainly here in Belgium there has been next to no publicity about the practical effects of the changes and, of course, with the Covid situation very few people have been travelling to and from the UK for any purpose.
The next big change, from October 1, which affects people rather than "goods", is the UK's intention to refuse to accept ID cards instead of passports. That again has received just about zero publicity but it is a huge change because most of the EU nationals concerned have never, ever, required a passport to enter the UK and, indeed, most, me included, don't possess a (valid) passport at all because the ID card, actually issued under stricter conditions than a passport, does all that they require.
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
While steering dangerously into the area of politics might I suggest that the organizers of Scaleforum in future avoid the use of the word 'demonstrations'. I can image an authoritarian Home Secretary using this as a reason to shut the whole thing down
David
David
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
bécasse wrote:Rod Cameron wrote:Presumably Vincent de Bode would have looked into all this if he was bringing the excellent De Graafstroom to Scaleforum. I wonder what his findings/conclusions were?
The next big change, from October 1, which affects people rather than "goods", is the UK's intention to refuse to accept ID cards instead of passports. That again has received just about zero publicity but it is a huge change because most of the EU nationals concerned have never, ever, required a passport to enter the UK and, indeed, most, me included, don't possess a (valid) passport at all because the ID card, actually issued under stricter conditions than a passport, does all that they require.
That is sadly to be expected I expect. Its really a gift that keeps giving... lumps of coal that is...
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
Nah we get most of our lumps of coal from Russia but don’t worry, we are actively trying to p*** them off too!
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
Good grief, it's just a hobby!
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
Perhaps Scaleforum could be held at East Midlands Airport? Being the most central of these locations:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_port ... ed_Kingdom
Layouts could fly in, be exhibited, and fly out again without any customs difficulties. Provided of course that not a single foreign nut or bolt leaves the site.
Martin.
40+ years developing Templot. Enjoy using Templot? Join Templot Club. Be a Templot supporter.
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Re: Brexit and exhibiting internationally
As Freeports are large tax free areas the operators and HMR&C would probably have something to say about members of the public entering the area as well as duty and tax free items ie other layouts.
You try getting out of a freeport with out any evidence of the tax status of your cherished layout.
Gordon A
You try getting out of a freeport with out any evidence of the tax status of your cherished layout.
Gordon A
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