Brexit and exhibiting internationally

[martin goodall]

Yes, there's no escaping the fact that Brexit has thrown up numerous problems and will cause more in the future (with the next lot kicking in on 1 October, which won't just affect foreigners). It potentially impacts our hobby in various ways, including depriving us of the opportunity to see in this country some brilliant layouts built by our European friends, or to take our layouts to European exhibitions.

But 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit - so it is THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE, and we all have to suffer the consequences.

[LesGros]

Spare a thought for the Scots Martin,
Embedded in Neverendum since since around 2012

[barhamd]

Yes, there's no escaping the fact that Brexit has thrown up numerous problems and will cause more in the future (with the next lot kicking in on 1 October, which won't just affect foreigners). It potentially impacts our hobby in various ways, including depriving us of the opportunity to see in this country some brilliant layouts built by our European friends, or to take our layouts to European exhibitions.

But 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit - so it is THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE, and we all have to suffer the consequences.

And the majority of those campaigning to leave the EU did not actually campaigned to leave the custom union or single market. Most campaigned that we could retain 'all the benefits' of membership while leaving. It was this government's promise to 'Get Brexit Done' by supporting an agreement which it would later try to renege on because their supporters hadn't actually read it which has resulted in the current mess.

[Julian Roberts]

But 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit - so it is THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE, and we all have to suffer the consequences.

The wisdom of the people....

https://www.nbcnews.com/science/science ... ip-n569171

(A rather smaller scale example)

[dcockling]

But 37% of the electorate voted for Brexit - so it is THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE, and we all have to suffer the consequences.

It’s amazing that you’ve found a way of counting the votes of the people who didn’t vote, but if we’re playing that game, then only 34.7% of the electorate voted to remain, which was hardly a ringing endorsement for staying in.

Like it or not, the WILL OF THE PEOPLE was fairly evenly split, but the leavers just edged it, so it’s probably best to try and get over it and use this topic to discuss the difficulties of moving model railways in and out of the country, in the situation that we are now in, rather than re arguing the referendum debate.

All the Best
Danny

[jim s-w]

Has anyone actually got any invites for exhibitions overseas, would even consider accepting one now anyway or has it all become a moot point?

[waveydavey]

Roundtrees Sidings had an invite to Eurospoor in Utrecht Jim.

Following the information provided in this thread it has become apparent that attending would be very difficult and we have taken the decision to decline the invite.

David

[nigelcliffe]

Roundtrees Sidings had an invite to Eurospoor in Utrecht Jim.

Following the information provided in this thread it has become apparent that attending would be very difficult and we have taken the decision to decline the invite.

David

I can understand your concerns David, but some of the thread may be over-stating the complexities. Earlier in the thread, Simon referenced the UK government site:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/working-and ... exhibition

which describes how "accompanied artworks" can travel without expensive and complex Carnet documentation.
Given the layout is an artwork, going to an exhibition, then it appears to be the right area of regulation/advice.
The page also refers to a "duplicate list" which may be cost-free. But I've not investigated that option.

Before accepting the uk government document as "correct" for the destination country, I'd go over to the EU equivalent sites, or those for the countries which will be passed through, and check their rules. I'd consider it likely that similar rules would apply, but would require confirmation.

Assuming rules are as per the gov.uk page, then "accompanied" would appear to include "some of layout owner/team in a hired van". Those on the van should claim ownership of everything onboard (ie. don't say "the toolbox is Dave's" when Dave is travelling in another vehicle).
Of course there are likely to be customs checks, for both undeclared commercial materials and illegal substances, but that's normal for any border.


- Nigel

[si78]

Has anyone actually got any invites for exhibitions overseas, would even consider accepting one now anyway or has it all become a moot point?

I am Jim.

I've been invited to exhibit in Holland in March 2022, so will report back with any updates and any info I get.

[vdebode]

Hi Nigel and Rod,

I read this thread about the customs. Actually I have not taken any action on that matter, just waited how it will work out.
The option that a layout and stock is a work of art looks a very good one. I think that is a sensible manner to deal with this problem. Thanks for mentioning it!

Vincent.

[Paul Townsend]

I fear that at least in the near future one will be at the risk of being clobbered by jobsworths.

I confess to having no experience of taking completeed models from UK to mainland Europe, only tools,kits and half built projects.

However I do have plenty of experience of sending parcels into the EU before and since Brexshit.

Essentially the cost has trebled this year compared to last year. , but the detailed bureaucracy varies hugely from carrier to carrier and the collecting courier or receiver at iocal newsagents seem to vary the rules on every transaction.

Chaos and ignorance rules OK ?

[steamraiser]

I think it has been mentioned before, a detailed list down to individual items of stock along with a good selection of phots taken during construction may be useful.

[jon price]

I would be dubious of attempting to define a layout as an artwork. All cultural objects (which includes artworks) removed from the UK need a Temporary Export License. Most cultural objects under 50 years old fall outside this requirement, as long as they are of specific types defined in the regulations. Since model railways are not defined in the regulations the assumption would be that a licence is required. You might assume that you would be exempt according to the regulation which reads:

"Any object exported by, and being the personal property of, the manufacturer or producer thereof (does not apply to companies), or the spouse, widow or widower of that person. does not need an export licence"

Any club or ad hoc group would constitute a legal entity (formal or informal) and so be unable to take advantage of this exemption.

If you are dealing with your personal layout you would need to debate the niceties of whether you actually manufactured every item in the layout, In any case very few layouts are in totallity the work of a single person.

You would also have to address the issue of rolling stock being considered as seperate cultural items. You might try to argue that the whole shebang is an "installation" but that would require all items to have always been, and continue to be, exhibited together.

What if as a result of failing to satisfy the "personal property of the manufacturer" condition you try to apply for a temporary licence? The same considerations apply to them as to applications for permanent export licences except that they are not scrutinised as to national importance. Instead an Expert Adviser will be requested specifically to comment on the object’s fitness to travel and whether there are sufficient assurances provided as to its return in good condition at the end of the temporary licence period. You will be pleased to know that such applications will not normally be referred to the Export Licence Reviewing Committee.

[Noel]

Any club or ad hoc group would constitute a legal entity (formal or informal)

As I understand British law, this is not generally the case; a random collection of individuals who decide to carry out a joint task [such as creating a layout] remain just that. They may, or may not, be jointly and severally responsible, as individuals, for their activities, but the group has no independent legal existence unless it has been formalised in some way. Agreements between the individuals involved imposing rules on how the group should operate and who is responsible for what are not enough in themselves to make the group a legal entity.

As ever, there may be exceptions, and other jurisdictions may have very different views on the matter.

Otherwise, a very interesting comment, and enough to suggest that competent legal advice is probably essential .

[Paul Townsend]

IF I were contemplating taking a layout overseas I would want a comprehensive written legal statement to show the customs jobsworth and even then would go with trepidation.....

[bécasse]

One further issue for those such as Vincent contemplating bringing a layout into the UK for exhibition is that everyone will (from this Friday) need passports to enter the UK. That may not sound like a big issue to a British person, and perhaps it isn't for the Dutch, but speaking as a typical Belgian I don't possess a current passport, my ID card suffices to take me anywhere I want to go (except now the UK); I can get a Belgian passport rather more easily than I could get a British one but it would still cost me upwards of € 80.

And, as an example of another downside of Brexit, I have just obtained a copy of Aylesbury LNWR from Wild Swan. The cover price was £ 24,95, the postage £ 15,00 and the Customs' charges € 24,10, so the hike in postal charges is dwarfed by the addition of Customs' charges which wouldn't have been payable before Brexit. Naturally, I am delighted to hear of emerging problems in the UK, which get full coverage, much along the lines of "how could they be so stupid", in an incredulous Belgian media.

[Horsetan]

...Naturally, I am delighted to hear of emerging problems in the UK, which get full coverage, much along the lines of "how could they be so stupid", in an incredulous Belgian media.

Belgium is, of course, the country that managed to get along without a Government for a record-breaking 548 days, during which everything continued to work. ...which sort of suggested that Belgium is a country that works despite its government rather than because of it.

The 548-day record was only broken by Northern Ireland.

[Winander]

Customs' charges € 24,10

The EU is taxing books now?

[Lindsay G]

Personally speaking I'm now quite happy to see the back of the EU and the bureaucratic nonsense which was part of it and which amongst other things delayed the Covid vaccination roll-out on the continent. However, let's not let this thread or others get bogged down with the pros and cons of Brexit - it's in the past, it happened, it is what it is today and will be tomorrow and for some period beyond. Whatever you thought before, during the debate or after, get over it - past history, move on, nothing will change by airing views on what anyone thinks should have happened.

Having said that, I do believe sense will prevail over a lot of petty nonsense (on both sides) as there are downsides to adopting such stances - and layouts will in time be getting ferried freely across the North Sea in both directions (and possibly even exhibited without social distancing and whether everyone attending is double jabbed).

At the risk of opening another debate, I find a custom tax of nearly 100% incredible. Paper must be as scarce as petrol in the UK presently. I think I'd be thinking laterally - what if I'd sent a book to someone in Belgium as a birthday present? In return of course for that person having transferred to me the purchase price of a book and P&P as my future birthday present?

Lindsay

[LesGros]

Well said Lindsay,

Is it not beyond time for an ending of both of the UK Neverendum debates; and of the relentless political posturing which can be seen to undermine both the UK, and EU members' future best interest?

After all, the German people have been forgiven for the Blitz years. And it is not as if there are not more important current issues to worry the population. For example: the "Just in Time" supply system flaws, exposed by Public Panicdemic fuelled by the gloomy 24 hour news cycle.

[jim s-w]

Lindsay and Les. Despite your let’s not get bogged down in brexit plea both your posts are entirely that (complete with the inevitable clichés, ‘get over it’ and mentions of the war) and absolutely nothing to do with exhibiting internationally.

You both realise this right?

Jim

[Andy W]

Has brexit created any advantages for our hobby?

[bécasse]

To briefly answer two questions:

The UK has always been an exception (permitted under EU rules) in imposing 0% VAT on books. Historically books in the UK tended to be cheaper than those published in continental Europe, not just because they weren't taxed, but that hasn't really been the case since at least the millennium.

The Customs' charges would be applied equally to gifts/presents and if no value (or £ 0,00) were shown on the declaration document, the Belgian Customs would make their own estimate of its value to decide the tax payable by the recipient.

[grovenor-2685]

Personally speaking I'm now quite happy to see the back of the EU and the bureaucratic nonsense which was part of it

But the bureacracy under discussion here did not exist when we were in the EU, it has arisen entirely as a result of our leaving.

[LesGros]

Lindsay and Les. Despite your let’s not get bogged down in brexit plea both your posts are entirely that (complete with the inevitable clichés, ‘get over it’ and mentions of the war) and absolutely nothing to do with exhibiting internationally.

You both realise this right?

Jim

Jim,

Presumably we can agree that the important thing now is for the powers that be to eliminate the problems.