Warley 2017

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:07 am

Interestingly (or maybe not) I dip in to the Wright Writes thread on the MRWeb. The same debate as Paul raises has been voiced in relation to Warley but from the other side ... namely the preference for large procession layouts with the emphasis on prototypical long and heavy express trains running at speed through the countryside, trying to capture the essence of this aspect of the railways ... the viewing position being a few feet from the layout. (An approach I thought Iain Rice summarised nicely in his recent letter in the MRJ). Within the group there was a considerable appreciation of the Shap layout ... even though it was far from finished.

I am not suggesting people go out of there way to read the thread ... but it does emphasise the distinction between personal taste and a cogent critique. I was interested in Paul's thoughts about Mostyn and fascinated by the resultant explanations they elicited - completely outside of my like or dislike of the layout.

Personally I enjoy the large parade layouts as much as I do the small intricate layouts for differing reasons - but have to admit to a preference for steam and if we are being picky, pre grouping steam at that. Maybe the point here is that one is always likely to forgive more on a layout one has a predisposition to like ... which might not always be a good thing.
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:41 am

Armchair Modeller wrote:I'm sorry Terry but I have to completely disagree with you and others on this.


That is absolutely fine with me Justin. :thumb

I think the difference is in what it is that is being commented on, and the nature of the comments. Pictures of individual models will normally give a flavour of the thing. Pictures of layouts, unless composed with some care may not. The pictures of the layouts at Warley were fine to give an impression. Other layouts pictures, such as those posted by Jim Smith Wright are obviously composed carefully and clearly convey what the layout is like. There are a lot of layouts that look better in the flesh than in pictures and some work well either way as can be seen in the current issue of MRJ with the articles about Midland Sidings and Plumpton Green. (That of course ignores the operation matter)

Constructive criticism is one thing but In my view negative comments are best kept to yourself or made in less public places.

"If you can't say something nice don't say nothing at all" (Thumper the rabbit in Bambi) :D

Terry Bendall

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby Le Corbusier » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:28 am

Terry Bendall wrote:
Constructive criticism is one thing but In my view negative comments are best kept to yourself or made in less public places.

"If you can't say something nice don't say nothing at all" (Thumper the rabbit in Bambi) :D

Terry Bendall


Terry,

This causes something of a quandary for me and I am not sure what the answer is. I agree that one has to be very careful in passing criticism, but might this not stifle debate? If a layout is out in the public realm and offered for display, can its relative merits and or faults not be debated?

I don't know the answer here ... had I been the creator of Kettlewell I think I would have been hurt by Neville's critique. But the issue is, does that make the critique invalid .... and if not how should it be debated - if at all?

Comments were made about how prototypical and therefore believable the layout is .... now I am not in anyway qualified to answer or debate these comments - but would be interested in the answers - just as I was in the answers to Paul's questions on Mostyn. It would also be interesting to assess whether in the final analysis such things are the be all and end all for a layout ... a more subjective question.

As I say ... I don't know the answer here - and am interested what a less public place might be and how limiting it might be.

Tim
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LesGros
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby LesGros » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:09 am

Perhaps a key point here is the subtle difference between the perceived meanings of "critique", and "criticism". Maybe some folk do not perceive a difference?

A layout "critique" should be a factual description of the content. An assessment of the worth; the good; the bad; the neutral. Nevertheless, it can be disheartening, or encouraging for the builder depending upon tone and content.

"Criticise", "criticism", and "critical" ; all imply negative connotations.

We are, on the whole, a tolerant and fundamentally kind, and helpful society; there is a common belief in fair play, and constructive comment. It is the reason that some posters were "critical" of Noel's postings. That three or four posters reacted swiftly, and firmly, to the tone of Noel's contribution is not so much "piling in", as John put it. It was pointing out to him that he had been unfair to be so bluntly dismissive, of a layout that he had not seen working.

As others have pointed out, there is noticeable difference between saying: " not my cup of tea", and "It is a terrible layout!"

The worthwhile, and interesting discussion about photography which followed, does not change that.
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iak
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby iak » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:43 am

Paul Townsend wrote:Richard and Gareth are trying hard to alleviate my Mostyn disappointment, I appreciate these efforts. I won't waste any more of their time on the Warley post mortem as their latest suggestion about what I saw may well be true.

I believe the model will be at S4North and I will be too. I will start by noticing the award winning signals and then watch the trains. I had better ensure I have my camera at the ready in case I think I see transgressions from the true path and will certainly talk to the crew there, as I will have more time to observe and absorb compared to a frenetic Sunday at Warley.

A personal note re big busy P4 layouts: when I watch Mostyn next time I am sure I will find it more interesting than Calcutta sidings which, while I admire the objective and ability to run proper length trains, I find rather boring. This is not a criticism about the model or its builders, it simply reflects my personal taste which leans towards pre-grouping models which include shunting capers. That is what I love about Burntisland ....there are others too.


And one will be very welcome Paul.
The Beasties next trip out is to another small show - https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/shows/show/the-london-festival-of-railway-modelling/
We should have even more stock by then..... :D
Last edited by iak on Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Noel
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby Noel » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:47 am

Julian Roberts wrote:I regard critics as part of the low life feeding frenzy that accompanies the creative world......... they are for people who are too weak minded to believe their own perceptions as to what is good and bad and need to be told what to think. They can bear as little relation to reality as Noel's critique of Kettlewell.


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Re: Warley 2017

Postby Noel » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:23 pm

LesGros wrote:That three or four posters reacted swiftly, and firmly, to the tone of Noel's contribution is not so much "piling in", as John put it. It was pointing out to him that he had been unfair to be so bluntly dismissive, of a layout that he had not seen working.


Sorry, but I fail to see how not seeing it working affects comment about a layouts appearance. Operation can only be judged from seeing the layout, appearance can largely be seen from photographs. There are potential problems; photographs can distort colour, for example, which is one reason why I looked at more than one set.

LesGros wrote:As others have pointed out, there is noticeable difference between saying: " not my cup of tea", and "It is a terrible layout!"


True, but, while I may have done the first, although that wasn't the point I was making, I did not do the second.

Terry Bendall wrote:Noel, if you had read the Scaleforum 2017 guide the history and background of the layout would have been quite clear and show that the comments above are inaccurate. Constructive criticism - Yes, but let it be based on fact not assumption.


Yes, I don't know why I got that wrong. No, I didn't look at the guide and probably should, but I didn't think of it, since I find show guides, as a class, of little interest, and I rarely go to Scaleforum these days. I acknowledge the error of fact, although I don't think it affects the intention of that paragraph, which was that the background to the layout didn't affect my reaction to it.
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dcockling
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby dcockling » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:21 pm

Terry Bendall wrote:Pictures of individual models will normally give a flavour of the thing. Pictures of layouts, unless composed with some care may not. The pictures of the layouts at Warley were fine to give an impression.

Terry Bendall


Exactly Terry. As the 'photographer' here I'm happy to say that I'm no photographer (having absolutely no interest in photography as a hobby or of its technichalities). When I'm at an exhibition with the Society Stand I usually try to take a few snaps and post them here and on our social media sites in order to give viewers/members 'an impression' of the atmosphere or feel of the show, or of the P4 layouts that are there, or indeed anything else that catches my eye. My snaps aren't very likely to provide a truly detailed photographic record of anything.

At Warley it was difficult to get near either of the layouts due to the large number of people around them. I felt that that they were both, in their very different ways, fine ambassadors for P4 modelling. And more than just the layouts themselves, both teams were constantly engaged with their veiwing public and I say well done to all concerned. That both layouts won awards was just icing on the cake.

Of course any member can post their pictures on here, but if anyone would like posting rights to our social media pages, please let webmaster John or me know. These facilities exist to help to promote our hobby, our scale and our Society in a positive way to the world at large.

All the Best
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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:29 pm

HI Folks :)

I only became aware of this thread yesterday as I have been busy building model railways, but as one of the Kettlewell team over the weekend I am sure John Stocks will not mind me making a few comments and try to answer Noel's original question as to why the layout should pick up a prize.

Firstly might I mention that John was both delighted and also struck dumb by the awarding of his first layout prize as he knows it is his very first venture into layout building. As to why his layout should be awarded such a prize which was for the best layout depicting an LMS scene (or its predecessors) there were quite a number of reasons I think.

The competition was strong by the way as 1) There was a layout depicting the Shap area on a grand scale (which I enjoyed watching myself)
2) Chappel -le-Frith, which was excellent on many levels and had some unique locomotives running including a "Fell" locomotive all in BR period (again a circular layout with much to hold the interest)
3) There was also the beautiful Midland Railway S7 layout Ellerton Road
4) The curious and interesting layout based on early electrification scheme in the NW
all of which had different merit, but much to watch and enjoy.

So why Kettlewell? Well it may have been some of the following that maybe Noel was unable to experience by only looking at photographs.

1) A sense of the place - although the actual village never had a railway it did exist and many of the punters recognised it straight away and talked about staying the hotel there and enjoying the river running through and other delights that John has photographed and modelled. He decided to model the station in an area which is open at the side of the village and was very keen to see if the layout would make sense when it came to distant rail connections and services.

2) The layout is run to a 4 day (Thursday - Sunday) timetable with variations for market days etc.

3) All the signals and track work are correct for the layout and period and all worked from a beautiful fully signal box interlocked frame which is a delight to use. There are additional levers which allow two ground frames to be brought into action and there for three operators to work together, which from the operators point of view is great fun. Occasionally mistakes are made and things can get out of kilter and co-operation is required to get services straightened out and back in order using railway like operation. The team are well practised and we can work a days working in about an hour.
4) Stock - we run Midland which John is building along with a few pre-group vehicles of my own -which will become redundant as John completes vehicles of his own. The second half of each day John is happy for those who are helping to operate some stock of their own - just for the pleasure of seeing them run on the layout. (I can see some complaining about that - but to begin with John had a layout, but no stock of his own and this is his way of showing his appreciation of his friends enthusiasm and encouragement. -this is probably the last show where we will have a mixed day. Incidentally I have always encouraged my friends to bring along stock to run on Dubbieside over the years - after all that was one of the original intentions within the scale.) John's stock is developing really well and he has some nicely running locos already.)

Which brings us to 5)Running - I have read this thread from beginning to end before posting and I notice Mostyn being complained about - however I spent some time watching it myself and saw no derailments during the time and that has been my experience on previous occasions. I have about half an hour's worth of video showing the layout working well, including the working signals which was shot without any breaks and nothing came off during that time - it is worked in a most railway like manner with trains running at appropriate speeds. John's layout also works extremely well - we do keep a check of anything that goes wrong over a weekend's running this Warley weekend there was one derailment on the Saturday and two on Sunday. We also had one adverse comment that the person thought that the background was too strongly coloured - however the colours came directly from the photographs John had taken. The colours work particularly well when Midland Red is seen before them. The back scene is still to be given a bit more work as it was painted originally over a day and could do with working into the buildings and we might tone down the colours a little - depends on John.

There was one coupling which came loose and the entry signals required a little adjustment part of the way through Saturday which just took a few moments. The traverser stopped going over completely at a certain point on Saturday although it did not cause any problems, however John realised the problem lay with the ball bearings and had it sorted within a minute of coming back to the layout. None of these three faults re-occurred after being adjusted. So what I call exhibition robustness was maintained once again as it had at Scalefourum. So a cracking good operating layout that is a real pleasure to go to shows with.
6)One of the fascinating aspects of the layout and which particularly appeals to all modellers is the fantastic design of traverser/ turntable yard which also has an additional yard beyond for additional cassettes - a cracking good piece of design and people realise that when they see it.
7) Lighting and display - John has a nice neat well made lighting fascia panel which is well clear of the viewpoints on the layout. The back scene is worked from photographs of the scenery behind the village. The reason Noel perhaps feels it is a bit like layouts from the past is probably because it was a common layout size for a layout along a bedroom wall, but the quality of modelling is way beyond most layouts away back then. It was lovely to have Buckingham at the NEC a layout I only had seen in the magazines, but had been inspired to build Dubbieside having read about it. One good thing which John brings with him every show he goes to is an introductory sheet describing the layout and its features along with some photos which makes attending shows and promotion of the Scale much easier.

8) Operators - all the operators are very knowledgeable about the layout and take some pride in how they operate the layout, including John's wife who is just as keen and supporting to the whole group. It is John and his wife who tend to set up the layout, the rest of us just turn up and operate, which shows that the layout is well designed as setting up and dismantling, which we take a hand in is very straightforward. Operators who are on the main panel tend to have some spare time between setting up trains and turning as well as signalling trains in and out so there is time to talk to the public and answer questions, this is true also for the goods yard operator who sits at the front, so good contact with the public and a very entertaining layout - it is no surprise to us that we had crowds around us all weekend even when numbers were going down at the end of the day. Another sign of a good layout is that people spend time with us and do not move on easily. We also, towards the end of the day on Sunday, allowed a young lad to operate and he did remarkably well. Pity he does not live locally to us, we have picked up members by doing this sort of thing at local shows up our way.

So Noel I think the prize was awarded for the total package, as the other layouts which I admired fell down on one or two of the above and that made the difference. As a Society we believe that quality counts and that should cover all aspects - which is not easy to achieve in a few short years as John has done. He still is adding to the layout - electric uncouplers and some more distinctive station buildings based more on the local vernacular, as well as more Midland stock.

So Noel, I hope that answers some of your initial questions and we will not hold it against you in any way to have a view that many others have commented adversely on.(and ask others to give Noel a bit more space as I know they will as I know many of them are friends who do believe in fairness, forgiveness and an understanding that we all get it wrong at times.)

Let me tell you a story about an experience I had many years ago. When I came down to Scalefourum for the first time I was coming down as a member of the West Scotland Group for the very first time and we had brought along one of our member's layouts. I had brought down with me a locomotive I had constructed - a type not that easy to build, an A4 Pacific which I was reasonably happy with and thought I might put it into the Chairman's Cup competition, not knowing just how prized the trophy was amongst the members. I am not sure what the date was now it was so long ago (late 70's/early 80's) anyway I turned up at the table where various locomotives were being handed in and on looking at what was present I put my box away and returned to the layout where my good friend Alan Clark was standing. He asked me if I had handed it in I told that the competition was so high I had come away with the locomotive still in its box. Alan after a while managed to persuade me to take it back again and hand it in having said "You may never do this again - there is no guarantee we will ever be back here again." and "Go on just for the thrill of seeing it in the cabinets with all the other locomotives."

When the prizes were being announced, blow me! I discovered that the locomotive had come first in the locomotive building section. My goodness I could not believe it and it so happened that my old friend Don Rowland was handing over the prizes and as he handed me the reward I heard coming somewhere from behind me the words which have stuck indelibly in my memory. "I don't think he should be getting this prize the locomotive should have been put in the beginners section as it is the first time he has been here."

Little did the person who said this know that I had been one of the few pioneers up in Scotland working quite independently of what was going on down south, in fact not wanting to get into all the in fighting which managed to get in the way of the early days down south. I had been modelling in P4 since it meant turning down Romfords and using washers as spacers to achieve the correct back to back! There are still some people around that have no knowledge of me except for recent use of the forum and have no idea about me, but that is OK why should they?

It was a pleasure putting on a show with Ian and others covering all these early years at Scalefourum last year. What I was able to bring along from the early days up n Scotland I think really surprised quite a few. I remember one gentleman saying "My goodness this is just as good as what is about today." - and he was right, perhaps it was even better as there was little available in the early days, but this is by the by.

Don't worry Noel, I don't think John will take offence and I, and the rest of his crew are really pleased that he should have received his first award which will not be the only one which comes his way. I hope you also find success in your own modelling and do not be put off too much by the reaction you received here. You will still get the same encouragement from the rest of us I am sure. We have all had adverse criticism and I am sure it hurt if we are being honest. If we are at a show we are attending and you are able to come along please let us know and we will be happy to let you have a go, just to get an idea of just how pleasurable it is to operate Kettlewell - the goods yard position can be worked fairly readily with just a few moments teaching and a few moments shared pleasure may overcome any upsets. :)

Enjoy Christmas everyone and we will look forward to seeing you some time Noel and please bring along something you are building and have a go at running it on the layout we always make everyone welcome. :)

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Le Corbusier
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby Le Corbusier » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:28 pm

Alan,

I don't suppose there is any chance of you posting some of your videos for us to enjoy is there? ... Do you have any of Kettlewell as well as Mostyn and others?

Tim
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kelly
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby kelly » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:31 pm

Le Corbusier wrote:Alan,

I don't suppose there is any chance of you posting some of your videos for us to enjoy is there? ... Do you have any of Kettlewell as well as Mostyn and others?

Tim



You've reminded me I still need to sort through the photos and videos I took (video mainly of Mostyn).
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:15 am

Allan Goodwillie wrote:I only became aware of this thread yesterday as I have been busy building model railways, but as one of the Kettlewell team over the weekend I am sure John Stocks will not mind me making a few comments and try to answer Noel's original question as to why the layout should pick up a prize.


A very informative post Allan, thank you. I have seen Kettlewell on several occasions but usually when I have been involved with other things -such as organising Scaleforum where I have very little time to see anything. Your detailed explanation is very helpful in justifying, not that it was every really needed, why John's layout should win an award, and some of the other background information was very interesting to read. Thank you for sharing it. :thumb

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Allan Goodwillie
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby Allan Goodwillie » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:23 am

Hi Tim, :)

One thing that I have found a bit frustrating in recent years has been the lack of time to edit my video material. Julian Roberts had Dave and I down to the Welsh Highland over a weekend what must be about 5 years ago now and we had a wonderful time riding on various engines on what was a beautiful weekend and I shot hours of video - none of which I have found time to edit. Which is a bit embarrassing as I hate letting down a friend. It will be edited I hope next year after the pressure to get the layout up to an interesting point for Glasgow. All the other video material will have to wait I am afraid.

Sorry, I will, I hope, to take some video of Kettlewell in its full Midland splendour. I do not have any video of my own layouts, but must make some sometime! When I had the museum I was so busy I have few photos of the layout during its time there fortunately my friend Bill Roberton turned up one day and took a few and looking back I am so grateful to him for this. Similarly another friend who died recently Ian Addison sent me photographs he had taken of Dubbieside the one time it was shown in the Art College exhibition in Edinburgh. The money raised by the layout appearing there was used to fund the East of Scotland Group which I started all these years ago. The photographs were not of very good quality, but I was so glad to get them and that Ian had been kind enough to think of me in what had been difficult circumstances for himself.

Hi Terry, :) thanks for the comments, only those who have had to put on a show know how much work there is before, during and after, - I have been there myself during my days as Livingston MRC's Secretary when I was also on the committee of the AMRSS for 10 years in the 70's and involved with the Glasgow show. I personally think you and your team have done a great job with Scalefourum and hope that it can carry on after you have given up the organisational side. Looking at the letters in recent Scalefour News there are plenty of ideas for folk wanting this or that, but it takes a doer to get it on the road and you have done well over the years and the Society owes you so much. I will miss your personal encouragement and knowledge as well as willingness to get to know us all up at this end of the country. We might be able to go around a show together sometime and just enjoy the exhibits! :D

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dcockling
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Re: Warley 2017

Postby dcockling » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:57 pm

And here are the Kettlewell team with their Trophy:

DSCF2469.JPG


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