Scalefour North 2014

[Jim Summers]

Just got back to the computer after Scalefour North and associated travels. So belatedly, can I add my comments that it was a great show, and maintained the fine S4Nth traditions of a friendly gathering of like-minded souls. Thanks to James and the team, new and old, for making sure we can still enjoy our annual weekend in Yorkshire.

For the record, the catering was rectified by Sunday. I experienced no queuing for lunch on Sunday, everything on the menu was there, and the lady behind the counter could not have been more helpful. Impressive.

And as John said earlier on this thread, the place is apparently Kwegs. A gaggle of taxi-drivers certainly did not understand the official name, but one got me there, and it was an easy walk back to the station. Nice of the organisers to have the station entrance moved closer to the new venue.

Thanks to everyone connected in any way with the event.

Jim

[Jol Wilkinson]

Promoting S4N by "advertising" the large collection of items for sale on the B&B has caused something of a furore on RMweb. See

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... 3th/page-3

from post number 55 onwards. It would be interesting to know which, if any, of those complaining loudly are Society members.

Jol

[Wizard of the Moor]

Well, that was a busy weekend. Many thanks to everyone for the positive comments here, and those by email and PM.

Setting up the show in a new venue after so many years across town was nerve wracking, but most things came good in the end and I've got a list of improvements for next year.

This was the best attended Scalefour North since records began and it was very nice to see that the number of Society members attending was nearly 20% higher than previous years.

The results of the best layout vote were as follows:

1st - Flintfield
2nd - Clecklewyke
3rd - Brighton Road

Congratulations to Vincent de Bode and his crew.

As Paul Townsend has already mentioned, he took custody of the Eileen's Emporium award for the best scratchbuilt model on behalf of the late Mike Jolly for the model of Olton Bridge displayed on the Standard Gauge Workbench stand.

Many thanks also to all of the other members of the team for working hard to make the show a success. Some went well beyond the call of duty in trying to deal with the plumbing problems. If anyone knows of a janitorial suppliers open in Wakefield after 6.00pm on a Saturday...

I hope that you enjoyed the show. If you did, then tell your friends. If you didn't, then tell me: scalefournorth@scalefour.org

[Wizard of the Moor]

I nearly forgot the Bring and Buy. Here's the scoop from the horse's mouth:

Nothing was sold from the Bring and Buy stand before the show opened to the public. Nothing, nowt, nil, zilch, nada.

No-one got special treatment, not matter what. Don't matter who you are, what you do or where you come from.

Anyone can arrange to have a box behind the stand to store their goodies and save carrying them about. At your own risk - some items did get nicked.

All the items in the photo that I posted were on the stand at 10.00am on the Saturday. Every. Single. One. There were some additional items, not pictured, that the collection's previous owner had offered to a friend and I acted as middleman to arrange pick-up of these at the show. As the buyer is building a very accurately researched model of an NER branchline then I could hardly refuse to help.

I hope that clears up any confusion. I'll be happy to discuss the workings of the Bring & Buy further offline.

[Trevor Grout]

Well James,

Well done on what appears to be a sucsessful show, I could not face to 500mile round trip to be honest.

I do have a serious concern though, your previous statement above states
"Nothing was sold from the Bring and Buy stand before the show opened to the public. Nothing, nowt, nil, zilch, nada.

No-one got special treatment, not matter what. Don't matter who you are, what you do or where you come from."

I also have read numerous other statements for others at the show that clearly take the opposite viewpoint.
My Question is therefore, who is telling the truth?

One for the committee. Please can we have a ruling that will once and for all sort out this problem of under the counter, behind closed doors, my mate, your mate, before the great unwashed get in, shadey dealings all to do with the B&B. It really isn't difficult is it....

regards
grumpy

[dcockling]

Trevor, James has just told you the truth.

The Committee has a policy and it was adhered to. No Committee member, no trader, no mate or friend can buy something before the show opens. So why do you have a serious concern? If someone writes something on RMWeb it must be true? Really? These other people who weren't part of the team working behind the counter and weren't in the hall before the show opened how the flying f... would they know more than Tony Williams, who runs the B&B, what happened.

People will always believe what they find most congenial to believe, particularly if it confirms their existing prejudices.

All the Best
danny

[chrisf]

I would like to add my thanks to James and his team for a very good show. The new venue is a great improvement and the range of layouts, trade and demonstrators as broad a mix as one might wish to find.

As for the bring and buy, I tend to stay well away from the stall until the initial melee has subsided. Whatever modus operandi is adopted is bound to displease someone and we all have our own ideas of what constitutes a bargain. Perhaps there might be merit in delaying the start of trading until half an hour after opening time as EMGS do, giving the staff a bit of breathing space in which to register brought items.

Chris

[Jol Wilkinson]

As a regular visitor for many years assisting one of the traders I found the new venue to be an great improvement, despite the Sunday plumbing problems and the catering issues on Saturday. The latter seems to be a regular issue for show organisers, do caters never believe what they are told about likely demand? Why are they surprised when everyone wants to eat at lunchtime?

The debate on the B&B going on in the parallel universe of RMweb does perhaps require some thought from the committee. Chrisf's suggestion of opening the B&B some time after the start of the show would seem to be a sensible answer, if only to show that "something has been done".

One other thing I would ask is that that a "traffic ordinator" is provided to ensure that there is the minimum disruption for all exhibitors and traders at the end of the show. I know that there is an unwritten rule that the trader with the least amount of stock to load and the shortest distance to travel home should park nearest the doors (it's known by some as Ralph's Law), but there was a general amount of "disorganisation" about loading up of vehicles at the front entrance to the hall.

As usual, however, S4N provided a great atmosphere to meet friends, acquaintances and fellow modellers.

Jol

[Trevor Grout]

Trevor, James has just told you the truth.

The Committee has a policy and it was adhered to. No Committee member, no trader, no mate or friend can buy something before the show opens. So why do you have a serious concern? If someone writes something on RMWeb it must be true? Really? These other people who weren't part of the team working behind the counter and weren't in the hall before the show opened how the flying f... would they know more than Tony Williams, who runs the B&B, what happened.

People will always believe what they find most congenial to believe, particularly if it confirms their existing prejudices.

All the Best
danny

Thanks for answering the question Danny, I am mearly pointing out that others have publicly taken an opposing standpoint, so someone I feel is not telling the truth, as far as I am concerned it matters not where that debate may be taking place, that fact it is being had in the first place should be the issue, you may not wish to take into account the forums, but there public, which is the clue to my concern this must bring the b&b into a little disrepute as to being perceived as not playing fair !
You say that the society may have a policy, but unless that policy is displayed openly in writing prior to and during the event, then it is not worth the paper that it is not printed on....

I know it used to go on and not so long ago, where I was privilaged to be early doors assisting trade, the items in question, were on the B&B pre-doors open, then were sold, and appeared on a previously enjoyed traders stand again pre-doors open and at a greatly inflated price. Evidence I would swear affidavit too. By the way I would also agree with Chrisf, with the suggestion that the B&B shopuld not open until some time after doors open, but then I have made that point a number of times already.

[David B]

There is another side concerning the Bring and Buy. When the show opens, traders and exhibitors need to be at their stands and they are then engaged, some for a considerable time. Whether the B&B opens at the same time as the show or later, those traders and exhibitors are at a significant disadvantage; the free-flying punter has all the advantages. I feel for the sole trader and exhibitor in particular.

The Committee, organizers and B&B staff are between a rock and a hard place. The punters have made the greatest noise on this occasion, but I draw their attention to the other people who provide the show and find themselves unable to get to the Bring and Buy until later in the day and the choice pieces taken. On this particular occasion, with so much that was attractive and desirable, I felt for the B&B staff who must have been dreading opening time.

The abuse of the Bring and Buy that Trevor refers to is reprehensible and people should make their views known very clearly to the person concerned.

David

[Jol Wilkinson]

David,

I don't think that the trader in question, a purveyor of previously owned and coveted kits, still has a stand at S4um. He used to collect a price list from LRM at the beginning of the show and it was galling to find him selling items bought from the B&B and elsewhere that he then labelled close to the price of a new kit.

Of course, he also sold kits from suppliers/traders not at the show, so his attendance could have been justified in that he provided a service in supplying these other products.

Jol

[Alan Turner]

Bring-n-buy stalls work when the items for sale are, for want of a better word, bric-a-brac. When there are items that are desirable then in my opinion the only "fair" way is by auction. That's fair to everyone, as those unable to attend (exhibitors etc) can leave commission bids. In fact thinking about it you could have a commission bid only auction, which would be less organisation. It also sets a fair price for the items. I know you will raise the issue of organisation but that is a different issue.

regards

Alan

[John McAleely]

that are desirable then in my opinion the only "fair" way is by auction. That's fair to everyone, as those unable to attend (exhibitors etc) can leave commission bids. It also sets a fair price for the items. I know you will raise the issue of organisation but that is a different issue.

It is a material one for a volunteer society. Given the supposed high value for items on ebay, surely we should all be bemused that anyone would offer goods via a secondhand stall. And yet people do. They do so with explanations like 'I don't fancy all that work', 'I want to support the society, and forego maximum return', 'I want to settle the matter over the weekend'. Others, of course, regard a trip to the post office to dispatch goods to multiple recipients as no work at all, and worth it for the return.

The society can find volunteers to man a second hand stall. Despite the long existance of ebay, we have yet to find a volunteer willing to auction things routinely on behalf of the society (there are volunteer organisations that do, of course). I suppose if someone fancies that job, they could contact the committee, and the society could incorporate that into how it runs secondhand stalls.

In the mean time, if people are willing to sell via the stall (at prices I understand they have to agree to), then we should be happy people are prepared to buy. Whatever their motives.

For the record, I plan to extend the wording on the bring & buy page, to capture how things work, so that as much as possible is known up front.

[jim s-w]

If the main idea behind the bring and buy is that it should be fair then what about those who don't want to cant get to the shows at all?

Surely the only fair approach for all society members is to make use of the classified section of S4news? That way all society members have a fair chance of getting something they want?

Jim

[LesGros]

What puzzles me about the complaints on RM web, is if originating from a member with gripe, why not post in this topic in the first place; if not a member, why did the complainant not speak to a committee member about it at the time? At least then there would have been an opportunity for a committee member to have got to the bottom of the problem whilst all was fresh in mind.

One has to ponder on the motives of those who grump about Scalefour Society exhibitions on RMweb, instead of directing their complaints where some good may more swiftly come of it. It all seems to be a manufactured storm in a teacup to detract from what from members' accounts here was a very good event. I am sorry that I was unable to make the trip this year.

Having read the alternative suggestions, it seems to me that changing to a later start-time would simply move the queue problem to a later time.

[Tim V]

Although I would question the motive of putting on public display a picture of the goodies potentially on the B&B, quite honestly as a modeller of another railway, the items were of no interest to me.

I think this issue has clouded a fine exhibition.

[grovenor-2685]

IMHO, the main idea behind the bring and buy is to offer a service to allow our members to turn some of their surplus kit into cash. The members fix the prices they are happy with and the role of the volunteers is to sell them and collect the money. Who buys it and what they subsequently do with it is not relevant.
For many years at Leatherhead sales did start before the show opened giving other volunteers on stands etc a bit of a chance, but that chance only related to items brought in early, so only a small proportion of the items.
The trader mentioned above did take advantage of this, but he also spent a significant amount of time throughout the show checking what had come in and buying in competition with everyone else. He paid the asking prices and the seller was happy, the Society got its 10% and was also happy.
The Society has a "for sale and wanted" section on the website, anybody can make use of this if they want to sell to known buyers without the free for all of eBay.

The furore on RMweb is just unreal. Anyone who wants to have opportunity to buy any item from the Bring and Buy has to turn up at opening and stay at the counter throughout the show, anything less and some choice item can be brought in and sold without them having an opportunity to buy.
The only people there is nay obligation to be fair to are the sellers, the aim being to minimise left overs they have to take home again.
Keith

[David B]

Surely the only fair approach for all society members is to make use of the classified section of S4news? That way all society members have a fair chance of getting something they want?

There is the Sales and Wants section of this Forum as well which is more immediate than the News. What's more, there is no 10% commission!

I disagree that this is all about 'fairness'. To level things on the day, the stall does not open outside the show times but if people cannot, or do not want to go to a show, then tough. The Bring and Buy is about recycling items and getting a return on the day. Some people see it as a money-making venture which is a shame and not in the spirit, but then there will always be people wanting to exploit the facility and little can be done to prevent it other than peer pressure on known exploiters.

[Tor Giffard]

Promoting S4N by "advertising" the large collection of items for sale on the B&B has caused something of a furore on RMweb. See

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... 3th/page-3

from post number 55 onwards. It would be interesting to know which, if any, of those complaining loudly are Society members.

Jol

Jol,

I'm a member of the society who posted beyond No55 but one with no interest in the B&B stall whatsoever other than seeing it as having the potential to deflect the deserved limelight for the society, due for an excellent exhibition, onto an unnecessary debate. This type of issue will present itself each year unless a more transparent strategy is used for the disposal of often rare items at often less than their market value. Listing all items for the B&B on a guest and member accessible page of this website with the current highest bidder price next to each item might be the solution. If this (auction) closed e.g. an hour before the show finishes on the Sunday it would give the organisers the opportunity to announce the amount raised for the most desirable items when the show closed and may allow anything beyond the reserve price to go towards a worthy cause.

Dave

[John McAleely]

This type of issue will present itself each year unless a more transparent strategy is used for the disposal of often rare items at often less than their market value. Listing all items for the B&B on a guest and member accessible page of this website with the current highest bidder price next to each item might be the solution. If this (auction)

This sounds interestingly like a proposal to develop something like ebay-lite and host it during the running of the show. Given that ebay is also widely percieved to result in 'unfairness' (all those 'collectors' bidding 'silly money'), I don't see where this is a clear win.

To my mind, there are two markets here: ebay and similar auctions, which are organised such that 'the whole world' can bid and sell, and so you will achieve prices that reflect a wide source of demand & supply. The bring and buy is physically defined, and so the prices will differ because the supply & demand is different. In some cases, that will be a lower price - the item needs to sell in a short time window, for example. In some cases I expect it will be higher, since there is a large, immediately available, specialist audience to sell to.

Both markets have imperfections, and someone willing to put time, money and effort in can find items at lower prices than others will pay, either for their own use, or to resell. You only have to look at ebay auctions for job-lots, which are subsequently broken up, to see that both places provide opportunities for middlemen.

So long as the seller is making a choice about which sort of market to sell into (and it is always their choice), I don't see a big picture problem.

That some 4mm kits do not achieve their highest prices within the specialist audience onsite at a show is not something we can do much about.

I can see that writing up more of how the bring and buy works (for example, if you want to have your stuff held in a box while you enjoy the show, apparently that's fine) is valuable - transparency in this matter is important, and we can improve that. Before S4 North I re-introdced a specific page for the Bring and Buy, and I intend it to grow over time. The main challenge for me is that the details of the two shows are different, and I've never paid much attention to how it works myself, so I don't actually know.

[Andy C]

Why is this an issue? Simply because someone is throwing their toys out of the pram because they didnt get what they wanted. Let me draw a paralel here: just supposing there is a trader at the show who buys a job lot of D and S kits from the executor of a will prior to the show. Before he goes to Scalefour North he puts it out on t'internet (it is Yorkshire) that this large number of kits are for sale . There is a resultant scrum prior to the show opening and its first come first served. I cannot see anyone complaining about that because thats business. And so is the B and B stall. the prices are pre determined by those who are selling and its first come first served, and in this case you cannot get them before the show. All that matters is the goods are sold. Simple as. It doesnt matter who gets them so long as they pay the asking the price for them. Fairness does not enter into it, its trade and when its gone, its gone.

I feel sorry for my poor friends who man the stall and have had to put up with this on here albeit slightly more civilised, and the vitriol thats currently on RMWeb. No one seems to be sparing a thought for their feelings, and I wouldnt blame them if next year they didn't do it. Ive done a bit on the B&B stall and it is hard and often difficult graft.

Now can you move along and talk about what seems an excellent show that Jamie and his team have put on rather than squabbling over whos got what kiddies. I am sorry I missed it for the first time in many many years, as we had another finescale show to run. Ive already got next years dates off Jamie so hopefully Scalefour North and Rochdale will not clash!

[Paul Willis]

I'm a member of the society who posted beyond No55 but one with no interest in the B&B stall whatsoever other than seeing it as having the potential to deflect the deserved limelight for the society, due for an excellent exhibition, onto an unnecessary debate. This type of issue will present itself each year unless a more transparent strategy is used for the disposal of often rare items at often less than their market value. Listing all items for the B&B on a guest and member accessible page of this website with the current highest bidder price next to each item might be the solution. If this (auction) closed e.g. an hour before the show finishes on the Sunday it would give the organisers the opportunity to announce the amount raised for the most desirable items when the show closed and may allow anything beyond the reserve price to go towards a worthy cause.

Dave,

Can I look forward to you running this auction for Scaleforum 2014?

Because the simple fact is that running the B&B, even in its current and relatively straightforward form, is extremely hard work. The Committee, and the Society as a whole, should be very appreciative of those that willingly give up their time to do it. They also don't manage to see very much of the show!

I have personally handled two large collections of kits and models donated to the Society in the last two years. That included cataloguing them and throwing out the dross, research on pricing at generally Ebay less a "member discount" for each item, then listing them individually. The results went on the B&B at the last two Scaleforums, on Ebay for non-P4/4mm items, and also in the Silent Auction that I wrote up and was published a couple of issues of News ago. Which, in a comment on the interest level of our own members, we received a grand total of two (2!) bids for on only three items. And those were at discounted-to-Ebay prices.

I've taken a day off work as holiday to drive at my own cost to the West Midlands to collect boxes of stuff, and taken literally man-weeks to prepare it for sale. If I charged the Society at my per-hour salary rate for my time, the cost would literally be in the thousands.

I'm not saying this because I think I'm a hero. Indeed I know of other Committee colleagues and Society members that have done it as well in similar circumstances. It also isn't a comment on the Bring & Buy at this year's S4N. It's to inject a note of realism about what it takes to make this happen even under the current system.

Above all, we do need to be realistic about what people do as volunteers. Or we simply don't get any volunteers at all, and no B&B full stop!

I'm sure that you recognise this fact yourself, as I know of the efforts that you've made to secure finescale wheels from Ultrascale for RTR conversion.

So please, lets have a practical debate about what can be REASONABLY done, without turning the twice-annual B&B into a full scale commercial undertaking.

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman

[Tim V]

To bring some balance, here are some of my pictures.
Duncan Wilcock enjoying himself

IMG_0058.JPG

Clecklewyke was very photogenic

IMG_0072.JPG

IMG_0074.JPG

IMG_0073.JPG

IMG_0070.JPG

Bernie Baker's layout.

IMG_0076.JPG

The Cup winner

IMG_0067.JPG

[Tor Giffard]

I'm a member of the society who posted beyond No55 but one with no interest in the B&B stall whatsoever other than seeing it as having the potential to deflect the deserved limelight for the society, due for an excellent exhibition, onto an unnecessary debate. This type of issue will present itself each year unless a more transparent strategy is used for the disposal of often rare items at often less than their market value. Listing all items for the B&B on a guest and member accessible page of this website with the current highest bidder price next to each item might be the solution. If this (auction) closed e.g. an hour before the show finishes on the Sunday it would give the organisers the opportunity to announce the amount raised for the most desirable items when the show closed and may allow anything beyond the reserve price to go towards a worthy cause.

Dave,

Can I look forward to you running this auction for Scaleforum 2014?

Because the simple fact is that running the B&B, even in its current and relatively straightforward form, is extremely hard work. The Committee, and the Society as a whole, should be very appreciative of those that willingly give up their time to do it. They also don't manage to see very much of the show!

I have personally handled two large collections of kits and models donated to the Society in the last two years. That included cataloguing them and throwing out the dross, research on pricing at generally Ebay less a "member discount" for each item, then listing them individually. The results went on the B&B at the last two Scaleforums, on Ebay for non-P4/4mm items, and also in the Silent Auction that I wrote up and was published a couple of issues of News ago. Which, in a comment on the interest level of our own members, we received a grand total of two (2!) bids for on only three items. And those were at discounted-to-Ebay prices.

I've taken a day off work as holiday to drive at my own cost to the West Midlands to collect boxes of stuff, and taken literally man-weeks to prepare it for sale. If I charged the Society at my per-hour salary rate for my time, the cost would literally be in the thousands.

I'm not saying this because I think I'm a hero. Indeed I know of other Committee colleagues and Society members that have done it as well in similar circumstances. It also isn't a comment on the Bring & Buy at this year's S4N. It's to inject a note of realism about what it takes to make this happen even under the current system.

Above all, we do need to be realistic about what people do as volunteers. Or we simply don't get any volunteers at all, and no B&B full stop!

I'm sure that you recognise this fact yourself, as I know of the efforts that you've made to secure finescale wheels from Ultrascale for RTR conversion.

So please, lets have a practical debate about what can be REASONABLY done, without turning the twice-annual B&B into a full scale commercial undertaking.

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman

Hi Paul,

As you note I am not afraid to do what needs doing in order to achieve an end result. If the outcome of the inevitable debate on this issue demands more members shouldering more responsibility then I'll play my part.

Dave

[Paul Willis]

As you note I am not afraid to do what needs doing in order to achieve an end result. If the outcome of the inevitable debate on this issue demands more members shouldering more responsibility then I'll play my part.

Dave

Hi Dave,

If you do possess the skill set to be able to do this, then the idea can be given serious consideration.

As a Committee we are never happy with preserving the status quo, just for the sake of it, if things can be improved for the benefit of the membership.

If we believed that nothing could be improved, we'd have no third rail track, no go/no-go gauges, and Scalefour News would still be produced on a typewriter in black and white, to name but a few

Do contact me offline if you'd like to discuss it further.
Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman