Scalefour North 2014

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jim s-w
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby jim s-w » Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:33 pm

Flymo748 wrote:So please, lets have a practical debate about what can be REASONABLY done, without turning the twice-annual B&B into a full scale commercial undertaking.


Hi Paul

It seems to me that it's not broke, despite what someone on RMweb says. The claims made there have been denied by those running the B&B. Theres a policy in place and it was followed, ok so it wasn't printed out first but that wouldn't have made the blind bit of difference anyway.

I don't see a problem so I dont see what debate is needed.

Cheers

Jim

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby Martin Wynne » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:38 pm

If the stand is called Bring and Buy, how is it possible to post details of items available in advance? Which seems to have been the actual cause of the upset. I thought the fun is supposed to be in the not knowing what goodies you might find on there.

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

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Flymo748
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:09 am

Martin Wynne wrote:If the stand is called Bring and Buy, how is it possible to post details of items available in advance? Which seems to have been the actual cause of the upset. I thought the fun is supposed to be in the not knowing what goodies you might find on there.

Hi Martin,

That's a good question, and deserves an answer.

Earlier this year we were approached by a former member that lives in Australia who was giving up modelling due to infirmity. He was unable to attend the show in person, but needed to dispose of his collection. Again, it was impractical for him to dispose of these items individually on Ebay due to the volume.

Therefore the whole collection was shipped over to the S4N team in three large boxes, and they invested considerable time in sorting and pricing each individual item in the weeks before the show. That was the reason that the kits were there at opening time.

As an aside on the timing, a parallel does happen when people on stands have the opportunity to deposit items in advance before the show opens because they will be tied up after it does. I've personally done this in the past because of manning the Society Stand. That does NOT mean that we have the chance to buy in advance though!

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby Martin Wynne » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:10 am

Hi Paul,

I can understand the logistics of having items delivered in advance, a facility which is presumably available to any member physically unable to attend.

But not the advertising in advance, which changes the spirit of "Bring and Buy" into just another sales stand. You can understand folks getting fractious if that affected their decision to attend, possibly making a long journey for the purpose. It's not really fair to members bringing stuff on the day, if other members get their items advertised in advance.

I would suggest changing the rules so that nothing is announced in advance. And perhaps to ease the scrum at the start and the workload on the volunteers, such items should be introduced on to the table at intervals over both days. Or at least during the course of the Saturday morning.

regards,

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

Terry Bendall
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:15 am

Jol Wilkinson wrote:I don't think that the trader in question, a purveyor of previously owned and coveted kits, still has a stand at S4um


This is quite correct. And we don't permit the setting up of informal accounts either and neither is anything sold from the stand in advance of opening time.

Terry Bendall

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Will L
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby Will L » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:01 am

I think I agree with Martin, the problem stems from giving advance information as to what would be available. The rules and running of the B &B are entirely reasonable as they stand so long as the existence of a big plumb lot like this aren't pre advertised. I doubt they would have gone unsold had know body known they were coming. We might also want to bare in mind that B&B stuff continues to be submitted throughout the two days, so perhaps a big plumb lot like this could be put out in stages just to avoid the early doors stampede and even to make some things available on the Sunday?

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John McAleely
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby John McAleely » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:24 am

Will L wrote:I think I agree with Martin, the problem stems from giving advance information as to what would be available.


Um, what problem occured because of this?

As I see it, there are complaints about pre-selling, and complaints about people willing to buy large amounts, perhaps for resale. The former seems to be something that has been addressed by James above, and the latter seems to be a problem because historically it happened as pre-selling.

For the 'pre-sales' at S4 north, it seems that whilst there was an appearance of pre-selling, what was actually going on was the sale of items not advertised on the B&B which had travelled together with the large lot, and the B&B was used to process the transaction (ie the goods were collected from the B&B team at some point - presumably because that's where the goods were...). Perhaps not ideal without an explanation, but I don't think what happened was actually a problem.

If there is a 'problem', it seems to be that some people saw the existence of items on the B&B table, and are miffed they didn't buy them. They are perceving a lack of transparency, so are worried that they didn't get a fair crack. That's a reasonable concern, but hopefully what is becoming clear is that the only issue is a lack of explanation in advance about what was actually happening. I'm happy to fix the latter with more stuff on this site for next time.

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Martin Wynne
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby Martin Wynne » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:50 am

John McAleely wrote:Um, what problem occured because of this?

Members who brought stuff on the day didn't get the same advance publicity about their items. The rules should be designed to treat every member equally. Either no-one gets advance advertising, or any member can say in advance what they will be bringing and have it advertised at the same time.

Martin.
40 years developing Templot. And counting ...

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45609
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby 45609 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:53 am

John McAleely wrote:
Will L wrote:I think I agree with Martin, the problem stems from giving advance information as to what would be available.


Um, what problem occurred because of this?


I think one on RMW did grumble that they may have been tempted to come to the show on the strength on it.

John McAleely wrote:As I see it, there are complaints about pre-selling, and complaints about people willing to buy large amounts, perhaps for resale. The former seems to be something that has been addressed by James above, and the latter seems to be a problem because historically it happened as pre-selling.

For the 'pre-sales' at S4 north, it seems that whilst there was an appearance of pre-selling, what was actually going on was the sale of items not advertised on the B&B which had travelled together with the large lot, and the B&B was used to process the transaction (ie the goods were collected from the B&B team at some point - presumably because that's where the goods were...). Perhaps not ideal without an explanation, but I don't think what happened was actually a problem.

If there is a 'problem', it seems to be that some people saw the existence of items on the B&B table, and are miffed they didn't buy them. They are perceiving a lack of transparency, so are worried that they didn't get a fair crack. That's a reasonable concern, but hopefully what is becoming clear is that the only issue is a lack of explanation in advance about what was actually happening. I'm happy to fix the latter with more stuff on this site for next time.


The second paragraph is a key bit of additional information that didn't make it into the show wash up posting by James and should now satisfy the doubters that nothing untoward was happening. As Will points out I'm quite sure all of the stuff that was posted in the picture would have been sold without pre-show advertising. I don't feel this should be allowed to happen again as it has otherwise clouded a very good show put on by James and the team.

John it is appreciated that you are prepared to take up the task of clarifying the B&B guidelines for all to read....should they be bothered. ;)

Cheers....Morgan

billbedford
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby billbedford » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:21 am

After wading through this thread and the one on RMweb, and watching buy-ins at t'Shop, I would suggest that the average person who sells through bring and buy sales hasn't a clue about the likely value* of their kits and models. The easiest way for the society to deal with this is to compile a list of recommended prices for various 'headline' kits and send it out with the bring and buy forms. I think that this would be especially useful for people dealing with items from estates. I know that a number of manufacturers track their own products on e-bay, so it shouldn't take too much effort to compile such a list.

* this works both ways, people are just as likely to want a fortune for some Tri-ang tat as give stuff away.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:37 am

45609 wrote:
"I think one on RMW did grumble that they may have been tempted to come to the show on the strength on it."

"John it is appreciated that you are prepared to take up the task of clarifying the B&B guidelines for all to read....should they be bothered."

Cheers....Morgan


In the first case they have no complaint. There is no guarantee that the items on the B&B, even if advertised in advance, will be still available when he gets there. That's nothing to do with the B&B "rules", just a lack of common sense. It is not a trade stand with a back up of multiple stock items.

Morgan is right to doubt whether people would read the B&B T&Cs. It's been my experience that people tend to act first, think second (occasionally) and read last (rarely).

Jol

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:39 am

As I see it, there are complaints about pre-selling, and complaints about people willing to buy large amounts, perhaps for resale. The former seems to be something that has been addressed by James above, and the latter seems to be a problem because historically it happened as pre-selling.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the"bulk buyers" (there were two such when I was helping on the B&B at Leatherhead) did not get much from the so called pre-selling as, by definition, not much of the stock had arrived by then, the bulk buyers made regular visits throughout the exhibition to check for newly brought items and their boxes filled up gradually.
Keith

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John McAleely
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby John McAleely » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:52 am

Martin Wynne wrote:
John McAleely wrote:Um, what problem occured because of this?

Members who brought stuff on the day didn't get the same advance publicity about their items.


Ah, I see. Since there is no practical way to stop members discussing in advance what they plan to bring to the B&B stand (they could do so on this forum, for example), and I'm sure they do so in their clubs and area groups, I suppose it would make sense to make it clear that doing so is a reasonable activity on this forum too.

To do otherwise would, I think, result in the inevitable accusations of insider knowledge, since it is *inevitable* that some group of people, not all of whom will be committed elsewhere at show opening, will be aware stuff is coming.

I think I would put the onus on the person handing over the goods, rather than the B&B team - they have more than enough to be getting on with.

Noted.

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LesGros
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby LesGros » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:21 am

May I respectfully suggest that this thread has now gone way too far off topic.

A disgruntled punter, instead of discussing it with a Committee member, drops a rock of contentious rumour into what had been a fairly tranquil pond, marred only by a few ripples about support services; some of which, by accounts, were remedied during the weekend. The ensuing debate is seriously overshadowing all the good work done by all concerned in making S4North happen this year.

In their shoes, I would by now be fizzing at the unfairness of it all.

To be a little more constructive: perhaps it is time for the webmaster to strip out, and continue to strip out, all references to the B&B into a new topic specific to purpose, excepting only a single link from this topic thread, which could then revert to the primary purpose; that of sharing the event with those of us who could not attend.
LesG

The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful

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John McAleely
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby John McAleely » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:47 am

LesGros wrote:To be a little more constructive: perhaps it is time for the webmaster to strip out, and continue to strip out, all references to the B&B into a new topic specific to purpose, excepting only a single link from this topic thread, which could then revert to the primary purpose; that of sharing the event with those of us who could not attend.


Contentiousness is the nature of a discussion forum. Active editing of a running discussion is a good way, in my experience, to increase the contentiousness, and have it spill over in other ways.

When this discussion appears to have run it's course, I'll consider such things (I do it, for example, on the stores stock thread), but I'm generally not keen on the activity. It's mostly 'just work' on threads of subjective discussion, is often perceived as censorship or nannying, and I have many other calls on my time.

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LesGros
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby LesGros » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:49 pm

...When this discussion appears to have run it's course, I'll consider such things (I do it, for example, on the stores stock thread), but I'm generally not keen on the activity. It's mostly 'just work' on threads of subjective discussion, is often perceived as censorship or nannying, and I have many other calls on my time.

Obviously, you do not expect me to agree entirely on this, but it is your call.
LesG

The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful

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Flymo748
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:22 pm

LesGros wrote:May I respectfully suggest that this thread has now gone way too far off topic.

A disgruntled punter, instead of discussing it with a Committee member, drops a rock of contentious rumour into what had been a fairly tranquil pond, marred only by a few ripples about support services;...

In their shoes, I would by now be fizzing at the unfairness of it all.

Hi Les,

One of the attributes that I would attribute to my Committee colleagues, in addition to their out and out friendliness, is the possession of broad shoulders.

Yes, there would have been more subtle ways to conduct a conversation. However we do not shy away from, or try and censor, a debate that may be productive.

As John has said, if a discussion is going nowhere, then there may be cause to lock it down. Yet if there is still something of value that we can take from it, we will be happy to allow it to flow.

We're (all, collectively) very fortunate that the debate on this Forum, as opposed to in Other Places, has a tendency to be productive rather than mere bitching, and ultimately conducted by all with a view to creating a better society for members. Long may it continue, and continue uncensored.

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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LesGros
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby LesGros » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:20 pm

Paul,
I think I have been misunderstood. My proposal was simply to move all of the B&B discussion into its own thread, to separate the contentious topic from the rest of the ScalefourNorth posts.

I wrote:
...To be a little more constructive: perhaps it is time for the webmaster to strip out, and continue to strip out, all references to the B&B into a new topic specific to purpose, ...

Where has the idea that I proposed closing down the debate come from? Certainly not from Me.
LesG

The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful

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Flymo748
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:32 pm

LesGros wrote:Paul,
I think I have been misunderstood. My proposal was simply to move all of the B&B discussion into its own thread, to separate the contentious topic from the rest of the ScalefourNorth posts.

I wrote:
...To be a little more constructive: perhaps it is time for the webmaster to strip out, and continue to strip out, all references to the B&B into a new topic specific to purpose, ...

Where has the idea that I proposed closing down the debate come from? Certainly not from Me.


Hi Les,

My apologies for the misunderstanding.

I actually don't think that compared to Another Place the discussion has been contentious. No one appears to have an axe to grind, and the comments appear all to have been said (regardless of how practical they may actually be) with good intent.

Another decent reflection on the Society, methinks...

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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Hardwicke
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby Hardwicke » Thu Apr 17, 2014 9:51 am

I'd like to thank everyone at Scalefour North (even the caterers who redeemed themselves on Sunday) for an excellent show, I'd have liked a few more direction signs as the only one I saw was on the gate! Kirkcliffe had a few problems and there were things I wanted to change (the loading hopper is the wrong shape but was repaired a I didn't have time to rebuild it. To be honest not a lot would be left anyway). My electrical practicalities let me down and I am addressing that now - the layout is in a nice large, warm, dry studio with ample access all around the boards. I've even got the track laid back in but then damaged another part during transit from Wakefield on Sunday.
Can the exit door not be blocked when everyone is trying to go home? Fine for those loading a van immediately outside there, but not so good for anyone else and no one wants to trip over valuable layouts.
I hardly stopped talking all weekend and it has taken a couple of days to recover.
The weekend was stressful and hectic but I enjoyed it.
I bought some bargains from the Bring and Buy, Even on Sunday.
What made it for me was a comment about my layout, along the lines of "it looks like a dirty, corner of a mining area that has been forgotten about and no one wants to visit" Yeah, that's what I intended. I'll get it fully working now and add the coke ovens, ariel ropeway, loop, stacking sidings and an additional loading siding. And some trees at the fiddle yard end.
Michael.
Builder of Forge Mill Sidings, Kirkcliffe Coking Plant, Swanage and Heaby. Still trying to "Keep the Balance".

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CDGFife
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby CDGFife » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:36 am

Having just returned to my computer after some onward business travel I tacked on to the Fife-Wakefield XCountry journey (Ladybank to Wakefield direct :thumb ) I'd like to extend my thanks to everyone involved for show that I thoroughly enjoyed. I experienced lots of helpful advise and encouragement to actually start that trackwork I have been putting off for the entire first year of my membership!
Also thanks to Howard and Paul with whom I had a long conversation on the demo stand - you'll be pleased to know I subsequently declared intent and purchased some track gauges and trackwork supplies!

Thanks again to all involved

Chris G

JFS
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby JFS » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:54 am

CDGFife wrote:
Also thanks to Howard and Paul with whom I had a long conversation on the demo stand - you'll be pleased to know I subsequently declared intent and purchased some track gauges and trackwork supplies!



Well done that man! You must post some pics of your progress!

Best wishes,

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Richard S
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Re: Scalefour North 2014

Postby Richard S » Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:18 pm

I would like to my thanks for the organizers of this show, I thought it was very well executed and had an extremely enjoyable day. Good mix of trade support and bought a few items to keep me amused for a while.

In my opinion the Bring and Buy hoo-ha is a storm in a teacup and should not detract from what was a good show put on by people who voluntarily give up their time to promote 4mm modelling. Well done to all of you.


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