Scaleforum 2013

[Penrhos1920]

These are the percentages of our UK based members that live within 75km of each of these existing model railway exhibition venues:

Scaleforum at Leatherhead 30%; Railex at Stoke Mandeville 26%; DEMU Showcase 15%; Manchester MRS 14%; Warley NEC 13%; Doncaster 13%; Scalefour North at Wakefield 12.5%; Peterborough (Warners) 8%; York 6%; Railex North East 3%; Glasgow (on this weekend) 2.5%.

You can use those numbers in several ways. One says that having the main annual show at Leatherhead has encouraged would be local (Surrey) side-liners to join the society. You could use them to justify having a Leatherhead exhibition as it is nearest to the largest percentage of the society. Or could say that the the main annual exhibtion should be in Glasgow as the society would like to encourage more Scots to become members.

[Tim V]

So what about Sydney? Very few members there, should encourage more to join up!

[Craig Warton]

You are onto something there Tim. Obviously Scaleforum 2013 should be held in Sydney to boost membership numbers. I think we could persuade Doug N to do the 1000km trip from Melbourne so we could maybe make up a dozen of us!

Craig W

[Andrew]

You are onto something there Tim. Obviously Scaleforum 2013 should be held in Sydney to boost membership numbers. I think we could persuade Doug N to do the 1000km trip from Melbourne so we could maybe make up a dozen of us!

Craig W

Make that a baker's dozen.
Andrew

[DougN]

I think I could arrange for a number (read all) the P4 members from Melbourne to to make the trip to Sydney... I would even drive! I may even build something for it and take it with me!

Actaully thinking about it we would have a lot of modellers turning up as good modelling does attract the better modellers of Australia!

[John Bateson]

Hire a bus from Melbourne, pick up the few from the Canberra area on the way and meet the Bris couple at Sidney.
Has all the makings of "Scaleforum VeryFarSouth".

But not in 2013 though since my lot are over here at the time! I may well need an excuse to escape them for a while in 2014 though.

John

[Alan Turner]

Scaleforum in Aylesbury from 2013? Really?

Comments from those that know would be useful...

Mike

No please No. Aylesbury is such an awful place to get to from up north (and I include the Midlands).

Road access is terrible on a Saturday and access by rail (OK from London) is not good the other way.

From the Midlands Leatherhead is better, of course Birmingham is even better!

Have you thought about Swindon - at the Steam museum?

regards

Alan

[David Bigcheeseplant]

"No please No. Aylesbury is such an awful place to get to from up north (and I include the Midlands)."

Really! at Railex our feedback it that our vistors think Aylesbury is easy to get to from using the M40 and A41 takes an hour and a bit, I have done it the other way to visit the NEC or Telford and never found it an issue on a weekend.

David

[jim s-w]

Horses for courses

I much refer the trip to Railex than Scaleforum. I did do it once on the train (railex I mean) and didnt find it a problem. Never even attempted Scaleforum by train.

Cheers

Jim

[HowardGWR]

our vistors think Aylesbury is easy to get to from using the M40 and A41 takes an hour and a bit
David

That's what I tried to refer to. A car-oriented response. I don't know how many Scalefour members do not have this option, but the danger is that only this is what is thought relevant. Anecdotally, I had the impression on exhibition visits that many members are not able to use the car. In the jargon, it's called social exclusion. I'm sure that is not David's attitude, but it something we able bodied, better off people, adopted unconsciously in the latter half of the 20th century.

[Alan Turner]

"No please No. Aylesbury is such an awful place to get to from up north (and I include the Midlands)."

Really! at Railex our feedback it that our vistors think Aylesbury is easy to get to from using the M40 and A41 takes an hour and a bit, I have done it the other way to visit the NEC or Telford and never found it an issue on a weekend.

David

Well perhaps it's just my luck but everytime I come that way you get stuck in traffic going to Bicester shopping village and then in the road system of Aylesbury itself.

Train is just not practicaly possible due to the very limited service from Bicester and the limited stopping of fast trains from B'ham and Warwick.

Alan

[jim s-w]

our vistors think Aylesbury is easy to get to from using the M40 and A41 takes an hour and a bit
David

That's what I tried to refer to. A car-oriented response.

Um, Howard. You did see the post before yours where I said I have been to railex by train (i am in the midands by the way) and didnt find it a problem? Of course you will get car orientated responses if you just ignore those that aren't!

Cheers

Jim

[Jim Summers]

While I have been away flying the flag, there seems to have been some discussion here about whether Aylesbury is the venue for Scaleforum 2013, and if so, whether it is the right place. I think if you dig up the old bone of the Chairman's Doghouse in the February Scalefour News (which came out well ahead of schedule), you'll find this dealt with. And there's an older bone which alerted folk to the increased costs of Leatherhead.

We are going to Aylesbury in 2013, and the fact is that it was not a rushed or easy decision. No place is ideal for everyone, of course, and Terry had researched 30 or more venues before we decided on Aylesbury. As the Doghouse said, we also even spent time on trying to look into the crystal ball, because we wondered if traditional shows perhaps didn't have a future as we know them.

Railex in Aylesbury is a great show, and the Society supports it wholeheartedly, but it is different from Scaleforum, and we will be striving to keep the two complementary to one another.

And in my own crystal bone, I can see that if they put a station at Aylesbury on the HS2, with High Speed Trains from Paris, Frankfurt and Amsterdam, the two shows at Aylesbury might begin to make it a centre like Utrecht for model railway shows. Now that should start an different argument . . .

Meantime, I hope to see as many folk as possible at Scalefour North.

Jim

[David Bigcheeseplant]

That's what I tried to refer to. A car-oriented response. I don't know how many Scalefour members do not have this option, but the danger is that only this is what is thought relevant. Anecdotally, I had the impression on exhibition visits that many members are not able to use the car. In the jargon, it's called social exclusion. I'm sure that is not David's attitude, but it something we able bodied, better off people, adopted unconsciously in the latter half of the 20th century.

I use my car most of the time as it's quicker and cheaper and like a high amount of places in the UK its the only way to get to locations if there is no public transport, ( thanks to Mr. Beaching) but I do use the bus and train at least once a week to get around too just because I enjoy it.

As for Railex over the years I have tried to encourage more people to use the train, and for the last few years we have provided a free vintage bus from the railway station to the stadium, linking in with train arrival and departure times.

I have not been on the committee of the Scalefour Society for a few years so am not sure what is the future of Scalefourum for 2013 or beyond, I would prefer it was not on our patch but that decision is not up to me.

David

[David Thorpe]

OK, I'm not particularrly happy about Aylesbury. Maybe I'm just not enthusiastic enough, but the time and expense involved in getting there and staying over the weekend means that Scaleforum will not be viable for me. But, to be fair, not was Leatherhead. So from a selfish point of view, I'd have preferred somewhere like, say, Peterborough, which has escellent transport links to many parts of the UK but is still (from my point of view anyway) somewhere in the Deep South.

BUT (and it's a big But) I think we have to remember that the task of the Committee here is a pretty thankless one. They're not paid. They're all volunteers, giving a lot of their time to trying to organise and run something that suits a membership spread out over the whole of Great Britain. Not only do they need to find a venue that is affordable, big enough, and has the appropriate facilities, but they've got to have a team of people who know what they're doing to run it in the exemplary way it has been run in the past.

So yes, I wish they hadn't chosen Aylesbury. But no, now that they've come to that decision I'm not going to criticise them for doing so because I understand why they did it and whatever they did wasn't going to please everyone. So I hope that the show in its new venue (next year!) is a great success. Meanwhile, I've still got Scalefour North to which i'm looking forward very much indeed (Howard, it's even better than strolling by the river!) and anyway, I don't think my wallet could stand a visit to the traders at two Scalefour exhibitions in one year

DT.

[Terry Bendall]

Like Chairman Jim, I too have been busy flying the P4 flag at the other end of the country at the Brighton Modelword show. And an hour ago I thought I had replied to this thread but it seems to have vanished somewher so i will try again.

As Jim has said, the decision to change the Scaleforum venue was not taken lightly, nor was it taken without a lot of debate amongst the committee. Where Scaleforum could be, or should be, has been discussed on here several times and there is probably not a lot of point in having that debate again. I offered to take on the main organisation of Scaleforum in 2007, although it seems to have been a big part of my life for longer than that, and since then have investigated many different venues. In the end it has come down to Aylesbury or Leatherhead, and Aylesbury has won for several reasons, one of which is the increasing costs of hiring the leisure centre at Leatherhead which has increased substantially this year and will do so in the future (Someone has to pay for the cost of all that very nice refurbisment)

The committe was and is very aware that there will always be winners and loosers in any change of venue, and for some people it will be a more difficult journey, and for others a bit easier. Full details of suggested travel suggestions will be given nearer the time, but what has not yet been mentioned is that the West Coast main line is 10 miles away from Aylesbury with fast trains stopping at Milton Keynes and slower ones at Leighton Buzzard, and the bus from MK to Aylesbury takes about an hour. Whilst we will always encourage people to use public transport, exhibitors and traders have no choice but to come by road, and those from north of London, and the visitors who come by car will at least avoid the perils of the M25 on a Friday afternoon and Sunday evening. (My person record for the 38 miles from junction 9 to juction 20 of the M25 is 3 hours). Also, being a bit selfish, it will make my job of organising the show a bit easier if the venue is not 70 miles from where I live.

RailEx is a highly successful exhibition and is one that I have always supported as a visitor and exhibitor in the 15 years that I have lived in the area and I shall continue to do so. It also attracts about 1000 more visitors than Scaleforum so a substantial number of people must find that it is quite easy to get to. For those who are unable or unwilling to make the journey by car, there is always the possiblity of group travel sharing a car or even hiring a minibus. That would make the trip even cheaper since the costs can be shared.

What you can be assured of is that Scaleforum will continue to be a high quality show wherever it is held.

Terry Bendall

[martin goodall]

I appreciate all the arguments, both for and against, but I think we really ought to back the Committee's decision.

They have clearly thought long and hard about this, and if their conclusion is that Aylesbury [Stoke Mandeville] is the best available venue for 2013, then I am happy to accept their judgment.

I strongly suspect that having held one Scaleforum there, we will find that this is a good venue to settle on for the foreseeable future. It has certianly proved to be an excellent venue for Railex.

Incidentally, my understanding was that there are not going to be any stations on HS2 between London and Birmingham (other than the intended link to Heathrow), so I don't think we shall ever get to travel to S4rum by super-high speed train. I don't somehow see Aylesbury as the new Ashford.

[Rod Cameron]

Incidentally, my understanding was that there are not going to be any stations on HS2 between London and Birmingham (other than the intended link to Heathrow), so I don't think we shall ever get to travel to S4rum by super-high speed train. I don't somehow see Aylesbury as the new Ashford.

Ah, but who knows what the gentle folk of the Chilterns (NIMBYs and others) might negotiate for themselves during the environmental impact consultation process? I would bet they want one, but they couldn't admit to it when the whole scheme was being considered. It's almost inevitable that (assuming HS2 is built) they would then moan about not having access to it via a Javelin-type service. Long way into the future of course!

[David Bigcheeseplant]

With Aylesbury now being confirmed as the venue for 2013, I wonder how the space will get filled with enough P4 layouts and traders each year to pad out the space, as it is quite a large hall, and I would have though the vast majority of traders who attend Scalefourum attend Railex, At Railex there are around 10 additional traders who deal with scales other than 4mm attend so would not be at Scaleforum.

Although having used the venue for Railex there are other rooms that could be used for lectures but these are away from the main hall in another building, and would incur additional rental cost.

Anyway I will visit Scaleforum at the new venue and I have a choice of how I get there, car, bus, bike or walk, it,s a pity South Aylesbury halt is no longer open then I could have got the train too!

Too be fair a new access road to the stadium should be open this year avoiding the trip around the housing estate, this will come off the main B4443 and provide less than a five minute walk from the Arriva 300 bus stop to the stadium, busses every 20 minutes on a Saturday from Aylesbury and High Wycombe, plus at Railex we also run a free vintage bus from the Railway station to Railex, not too sure if Terry plans to put a bus on for Scaleforum.

David

[David B]

I have no problems with S4um being in Aylesbury - at least I don't have to go anywhere near London coming from near Exeter.

However, I have just been looking up relative costs and times for getting to Aylesbury and taking the train is a non-starter. Available times are workable (if I can get a lift in to Exeter at 06.30), though the train takes at least half an hour longer than going by car and one has to go via Paddington & Marylebone. The clincher is the cost. I can drive it for about half the cost (in fuel) of the train fare. Share it and one is quids in.

I can rarely afford the train these days unless someone else picks up the bill. My wife & I recently went to London and did it by car because it was cheaper to do that and pay for 3 days' parking than to take the train. It was also far more convenient.

David

[allanferguson]

BUT (and it's a big But) I think we have to remember that the task of the Committee here is a pretty thankless one. They're not paid. They're all volunteers, giving a lot of their time to trying to organise and run something that suits a membership spread out over the whole of Great Britain. Not only do they need to find a venue that is affordable, big enough, and has the appropriate facilities, but they've got to have a team of people who know what they're doing to run it in the exemplary way it has been run in the past.
DT.

Hear Hear

Allan F

[Terry Bendall]

With Aylesbury now being confirmed as the venue for 2013, I wonder how the space will get filled with enough P4 layouts and traders each year to pad out the space,

We are almost at the stage where Scaleforum has outgrown Leatherhead and those who came last year will know that things were cramped in places, as they were in the previous year, but that was moire due to the unfinished refurbisment. So I am looking forward to having some more circulation space and room to breath, and I expect most visitors will feel the same. There are quite a lot of new P4 layouts coming along, including some large ones, so providing the expenses are reasonable, the larger space will give us room for these, along with everything else that we know and love about Scaleforum. Some traders are also asking for more space so i don't see filling the space as a problem.

not too sure if Terry plans to put a bus on for Scaleforum

Yes we will - it is always good to learn from David's experience.

Terry Bendall

[Tim V]

Oddly, Leatherhead is easier to get to from Bristol than Aylesbury, but ho hum, the die is cast.

[Tim V]

So, how are the plans progressing for Scalefour Far South - if you want to book Clutton, it would probably have to come sea freight......

[dcockling]

I would have though the vast majority of traders who attend Scalefourum attend Railex

We have actually looked at this point. We compared the list of Traders on the Railex 2011 website (although the final attendees were slightly different) with our list for Scaleforum 2011. Railex had 50 traders booked, Scalefourum had 49. 28 traders appeared at both shows, 22 traders were at Railex and not at Scaleforum, 21 traders were at Scaleforum but not at Railex. So it depends how you define a vast majority, 28 out of 50 is a majority, but I think that there's still enough of a difference, and we will aim to maintain a clear difference.

I wonder how the space will get filled with enough P4 layouts and traders each year to pad out the space, as it is quite a large hall

Scaleforum at Stoke Mandeville will be Scaleforum and not Railex MkII, they are different shows and we will strive to keep that differentiation clear. We will have 58% more space than at Leatherhead, at a lower cost than Leatherhead. 'Padding it out' is rather a negative way of looking at it. Having all that extra space will present us with opportunities not problems. We have lots of ideas, but I want to emphasise again that we aren't going to be trying to compete with Railex, so for example, we aren't planning for 20 layouts, rather than our usual 10, just because Railex has 20 layouts.

Scaleforum 2013 is still 19 months away, and we have one last year at Leatherhead to enjoy yet.

All the Best
Danny