Scaleforum 2013

[jim s-w]

That's just it, there isn't a point, you are just presenting your opinion as fact. But now it is you that is rubbishing the feedback YOU are getting and diverging off of different directions.

Tell you what, find me a post where a member of the scaleforum team actually says 'all society members have an obligation to attend scaleforum' as that would be a fact, anything else is merely 'the facts as YOU think you know them'

cheers

Jim

[grovenor-2685]

I suggested a separate car share page largely because each year the current Scaleforum is a topic which attracts a lot of comments, in which I felt requests/offers of lifts were likely to get lost in the general chat. A separate page could also be extended for other shows.

Noel, sorry if I misunderstood you on this, perhaps I am deducing tones by reading between the lines like dai-t
I was trying to say that there is no need for someone in "admin" to create a dedicated area for 'car share' since anyone can just create an appropriate topic in the existing exhibitions area as needed. Clearly people could find this very useful.

Sorry Jim, but you're missing the implications from a very unwelcome tone in a number of preceding posts,

Sorry David, I have just had a scan back and I don't see any of the tone you refer to, I think a lot of ill feeling can be caused by reading into posts on email or forum "tone" which was never intended. If you want to take this further I suggest you explain exactly which word in each post you did not like and what you thought they meant. I can't see anything whatever that suggests a duty to attend, or a duty to explain why not, just a civil request for reasons in the hope that would provide some guidance for the future.
Regards
Keith

[SHurst]

Wow -all these years a "member" of the Society and now I have finally reached that exalted modern status of a "customer" and thus part of a "customer base".....

[Rod Cameron]

Entirely agree Keith. 'Asking for support' is far away from 'demanding your presence'. Terry is merely seeking reasons why two thirds of the membership prefer not to attend Scaleforum, in case there are some easy fixes that can be made. There is no sinister hidden agenda here.

[dal-t]

Thanks Jim and Keith, I think I've got the point, offer an opinion that doesn't suit the establishment and 'the boys' will put the boot in. Sad that the Society feels it must operate at that level but no doubt "Tout est pour le mieux dans le meilleur des mondes", as they (used to) say in this part of the world. I'd still like Scaleforum going forward to be a successful enterprise, but if learning is that difficult for Members with influence it seems unlikely.

Simon - yes, I appreciate your reaction to 'management speak' and I share it myself much of the time, but I thought it might just be terms those I was trying to communicate with could understand. Obviously I was introducing cranial container to masonry obstruction with little probability of constructive outcome so I unreservedly withdraw my observations.

[jim s-w]

Not at all David

I am speaking just as a member like you, I have absolutely nothing to do with the organisation or running of scaleforum. You can go down the woe is me route all you like but at the end of the day you are entitled to your opinion an I am entitled to mine. You present your opinion as fact with nothing to back it up. My opinion is that you have given no constructive feedback to the organisers and have merely entered the discussion to 'put the boot in' as you put it. Now you can continue to insult those who don't agree with you or you might drop your completely miss guided opinion that you know better than anyone else, offer some actual feedback and get over your ridiculously superior attitude you choose to present.

'learning is difficult'
'those I was trying to communicate with could understand'

Rarely have I seen such a set of condescending posts from anyone before, it's actually quite embarrassing.

[dal-t]

Rarely have I seen such a set of condescending posts from anyone before, it's actually quite embarrassing.

Oh dear, dared to upset my elders (maybe) and betters (hmm?). Must tug forelock and retreat in disarray. Just amazed at the recognition I am (also) entitled to an opinion - hardly fits with the rest of the feudal attitudes ...

Rarely have I encountered such arrogant and insulting posturing (and I worked in Government for 35 years)

[John McAleely]

I have the advantage here of having heard Terry give this pitch in person, (as may have others), so I happily believe his intent is simply to serve members, and that providing an event they wish to attend is the way he chooses to do that. From that perspective, I could well imagine that 1/3 attendance represents a measure to aim to grow from.

Equally, to read all sorts of implications into the words typed here is understandable. Readers might reasonably compare to other places they read similar things. As such, I can well imagine that if the only question asked is 'why don't you come' (often enough) that could be asked in places where the listener would assume an undertone. I've been in such places. That I believe this is not one of those places may not be obvious if you are a reader of just the words.

I believe another trueism is that those of us who participate actively on threads like this are a small percentage of the membership who simply choose to read. I tend to assume that if one person is prepared to type a viewpoint, a cohort of readers will share close versions of it.

So we must be wary of tipping from the side of asking what would encourage members to come along, to implying that they are lesser members if they choose not to. I hope that the strong reaction to dal-t's suggestion makes it clear that there is no intent to head in that direction.

To move this conversation along, how about another way of asking for advice. We're a group of ~2000 people who put on 4 large events during the year. The largest of these attracts 1/3 of the membership. I personally think that's pretty impressive, but are there people who know of examples from other fields or hobbies which achieve more (or less?) attendance to similar events?

[essdee]

Increasingly baffled by the recent trend of this thread, I have scanned back.

Terry might prefer to be David Moyes right now?

Any organiser of an exhibition worth their salt, who had consulted the membership, tried to lay on a 'spread', then found the uptake significantly less than hoped-for, would be concerned and surely seek some clue as to why more folk did not come? How else sensibly to judge next year's programme?

I read no compulsion in his posting at all - merely an encouragement for more of the membership to give the new venue a try; and a genuine request for constructive feedback as to why the mixture might not be right. I was certainly surprised to find 'busy' Saturday so comfortably uncrowded.

I am delighted that the new venue makes Scaleforum a much easier prospect for my attendance, even if there is a lot to see in one day (time, cost make an overnight stay 'not on'). Sorry for those faced with a longer journey - but they have had Leatherhead for the past how-many years; I only attended City Uni once, Leatherhead twice.

In time Aylesbury, too, will develop its own 'atmosphere', but this was 'new boys/girls' for everyone involved, at the start of a new term - leaving aside any Railex comparisons.

Sounds like a 1-1- draw this year? Not the end of the world - and Leatherhead might even have had a reduction in numbers this year if the costs had not forced a move, no way of telling. We are not properly out of that recession yet..........

'The Boys'....'Establishment'....!?? Leave it out..... per-lease!!

And thank you Jim S-W, for now providing a translation, for a mere peasant like me, of the more obscure sections of a recent rather intemperate posting. I too struggle to find the constructive intent therein.

BW

Steve

[jim s-w]

amazed at the recognition I am (also) entitled to an opinion

Actually the point was that others are entitled to thier opinion just as much as you without you implying that they are stupid or not of required intellect to discuss things with you. Appologies if that wasn't clear

Any organiser of an exhibition worth their salt, who had consulted the membership, tried to lay on a 'spread', then found the uptake significantly less than hoped-for, would be concerned and surely seek some clue as to why more folk did not come? How else sensibly to judge next year's programme?
Steve

It would be so much easier for someone to just put on the show they would like to see without a membership to answer too. Indeed most none society shows are like this and are very much what the organiser wants or thinks best. I don't know Terry all that well but he does come over as someone who is always looking to improve and give the membership what they want first and foremost. That's what this is all about isn't it?

Cheers

Jim

[SHurst]

Yes learning can be difficult - the terms "imply" and "infer" often cause problems - especially when neither really fits the bill.

Withdrawal of "management speak" duly noted - as are differing opinions of members on a "members forum" ( pardon the plain English )

Simon

[dal-t]

amazed at the recognition I am (also) entitled to an opinion

Actually the point was that others are entitled to their opinion just as much as you without you implying that they are stupid or not of required intellect to discuss things with you. Appologies if that wasn't clear


Cheers

Jim

I didn't imply any such thing, if you inferred it I don't think I can be held responsible - or was the preceding lecture about not 'reading between lines' an example of 'do as I say not as I do'?

[Paul Willis]

Gosh, I didn't expect the Forum to be so lively at this time of night...

Two brief points:

- the Committee *is* open to all feedback, and will consider the what, when and how of all aspects of Scaleforum for future years.

- I've scarcely seen a comment from someone that attended that didn't enjoy the show. So an atmosphere of doom and gloom is hardly merited.

In my personal opinion, having one third (plus) of the membership at a single event is a bloody good result and I realistically wouldn't expect it to be more. We did crunch the numbers about a year ago, and roughly 80% of the membership within a "reasonable" range of (then) Leatherhead actually attended the show. So I personally feel that we have (broadly) hit the ceiling on members attending some years ago.

The question that Terry and the Committee will really be driving at is what can make it a "better" show for the members of the Society. That is what we would like to hear. Answers on a postcard please...

What I took away from Scaleforum 2013 was that WillL's delightful GER Coffee Pot, which is at a slightly more advance stage of completion than mine, is substantially heavier. So learning from his freely-given advice, I've just spent the last 45 minutes carefully melting 70 degree solder into the ogee side tanks until they were full and it is much more more solid in feel. Now *that* is what Scaleforum is really about - improving our modelling through friendship with others...

Cheers,
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman

[LesGros]

Wow -all these years a "member" of the Society and now I have finally reached that exalted modern status of a "customer" and thus part of a "customer base".....

You must be very careful what you infer, Simon

[DougN]

Paul I think you have stated that item that needs to be taken into account for measuring the attendance. It is the catchment area of s4um if 80% of the local member ship is attending a it is great result. Here in Australia we have about 20 members of which about 2 to 3 make it each year. So this must be taken as a being a high proportion due to the cost and time to get to s4um.

Take this to the entirety of the association. There will be a proportion who will never miss a s4um there will be also the proportion of the local who will never miss but if it moves they will think it is too far the next group who will make it if they can... Then there is the group who will never ever go for various reasons. Dare I suggest that it is a bit like a school fete. There is always a small minority who do the work, there are others who support by going along and then there are the others who forget, never go... Or wouldn't be caught dead at one....

So I believe moving he exhibition will be good in a year or 2 where there is an increase in patronage compared to previously. The incremental changes that Terry and the committee will slowly increase and keep the whole experience fresh.

Personally I would like to get to s4um for the people who I want to talk too... You know who you are! And the layouts and the traders are just a bonus but this is how I enjoy the exhibition.

[jim s-w]

I didn't imply any such thing, if you inferred it I don't think I can be held responsible - or was the preceding lecture about not 'reading between lines' an example of 'do as I say not as I do'?

That exactly what I meant about your response to Terry's post, seems we got there in the end

[Metropolitan]

OK I am going to brainstorm!!

There are just two shows each year that are unmissable to me. The first is Scaleforum and the second is RMWeb Taunton. What marks out the RMWeb do is the fact that you feel you are like part of a club or group of like minded friends.

.............. On one hand you are decrying that members should feel obliged to attend and yet on the other you would, apparently, prefer it to be a members only event.

It's a meaningless comparrison.

Cheers

Jim

Actually, Jim, I was not in any way decrying that members should be encouraged to attend. That was some one else so please be careful. And the very last thing I would like to see is Scaleforum as a members only event so again I would be grateful if you would not put words in my mouth that I have not said. Please read my posts again. The comparison I was trying to make was one of Atmosphere? I have some sympathy with David L-T's frustration at times. No one is even allowed to think outside the box without being condemned. And your ideas for increasing the numbers next year are what exactly????????? I will make no apology for coming up with suggestions no matter how silly they may be so you need to get used to it.

Regards
John

[Paul Willis]

The comparison I was trying to make was one of Atmosphere? I have some sympathy with David L-T's frustration at times. No one is even allowed to think outside the box without being condemned. And your ideas for increasing the numbers next year are what exactly????????? I will make no apology for coming up with suggestions no matter how silly they may be so you need to get used to it.

Thinking outside the box is definitely encouraged.

As part of that, I put up a counter-question. Do we actually want to see lower attendance?

I phrase the question in that way to stimulate some thinking. If "atmosphere" (a good summary word by John) is what members want, perhaps what it needs is fewer layouts, a dedicated seating area, more "public" lectures to encourage those in the show to attend them.

The quid pro quo is that perhaps we change the pricing model for Scaleforum. Or the balance of the financial budget. Or whatever.

We have a great new location (minor quibbles aside, and we would have these at any location including Leatherhead) so Terry's request should be viewed in terms of "what sort of show would you like to see?". And open expression of those views is certainly not seen by me as implied criticism of Scaleforum or the Society as a whole. As David has said, all feedback is good feedback. It is not of value to have just that which appears to agree with a perceived (and non-existent) clique.

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman

[Terry Bendall]

Well - what a ruckus I started.

I made a response to the commenst posted by Steve Carter.

"Our Society needs our support to ensure that events such as Scaleforum can continuously evolve and develop by exploring new and fresh ideas that build on the foundations we have today."

In my view the best sort of support would be for more people to come. That is my view, but it was never intended to imply some sort of compulsion to come, far from it. One way of encouraging more people to come is to make sure that we provide what people would like to see. Therefore what we want to know is why don't people come and if this is because of things that we can change then we will try to do so.

Please look again at the third paragraph of page ii of the Scaleforum Guide. Scaleforum is organised primarily for the members of the Society to see examples of excellent modelling, find out how that was achieved, get help to learn the skills and to be able to buy the bits that you need to support your modelling. Another important consideration is to meet like minded people, make new friends and enjoy the company of old friends. That's it.

I read no compulsion in his posting at all - merely an encouragement for more of the membership to give the new venue a try; and a genuine request for constructive feedback as to why the mixture might not be right.

Exactly right Steve. All constructive feedback, and all ideas, however way out they may seem, are always welcome.

And in spite all all the words that have been written in the last 24 hours, there have been very few actual answers to my question, apart from those who were unable to come because of illness, distance or other factors beyond their control, which of course will always happen.

Terry Bendall

[Metropolitan]

Well - what a ruckus I started.

I made a response to the commenst posted by Steve Carter.

"Our Society needs our support to ensure that events such as Scaleforum can continuously evolve and develop by exploring new and fresh ideas that build on the foundations we have today."

In my view the best sort of support would be for more people to come. That is my view, but it was never intended to imply some sort of compulsion to come, far from it. One way of encouraging more people to come is to make sure that we provide what people would like to see. Therefore what we want to know is why don't people come and if this is because of things that we can change then we will try to do so.

Please look again at the third paragraph of page ii of the Scaleforum Guide. Scaleforum is organised primarily for the members of the Society to see examples of excellent modelling, find out how that was achieved, get help to learn the skills and to be able to buy the bits that you need to support your modelling. Another important consideration is to meet like minded people, make new friends and enjoy the company of old friends. That's it.

I read no compulsion in his posting at all - merely an encouragement for more of the membership to give the new venue a try; and a genuine request for constructive feedback as to why the mixture might not be right.

Exactly right Steve. All constructive feedback, and all ideas, however way out they may seem, are always welcome.

Terry

To help answer your questions how about a bit of market research? Perhaps we could put a tick-box questionnaire in Scalefour News with an SAE? You know the sort of thing...: eg:

- How likely are you to attend Scalforum next year? 1) Very Likely 2) Likely 3)Undecided 4)Unlikely 5)Very Unlikely

- Please rank the following in order of importance to you at the show 1)The Layouts 2)The Trade stands 3) The demonstrations 4)The lectures 5)Food and drink

-What would make you more likely to visit next year? 1) .......................etc etc

etc etc etc.

Yes, it would cost a grand to do but might pay dividends. It might also be worth another say £500 to get a professional researcher to write it?

Regards
John A

PS: More ideas:---Any Non Member who joins the society at the show gets his entrance fee refunded?

[JFS]

The one thing I cannot tolerate is intolerance...

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I wonder how many members don't model or are just passive about the membership, I belong to a number of societies and some I just read the blurb that drops through the letter box as I want to know whats going on but I have not been to the full sized railway it supports for 5-10 years. There must be others whom Scaleforum falls on a weekend they have something else on family birthdays etc.

[essdee]

Terry,

Some 'feedback by proxy' here? Two of my P4 colleagues 'at large' regretted not attending Scaleforum this year, neither of them post here. Both are approaching retirement - lucky guys indeed, I shall 'drop between the shafts'..... Both are fully occupied; one had a weekend conference, and missed his first Scaleforum in ten years; the other (in Scotland), an occasional Leatherhead attendee, was detained by work commitments. The latter was extremely disappointed to miss Blackgill in particular, and I am in the process of copying my digitals to him in lieu. I will take a sounding at our Group meet Wednesday, and see who else made it -I only met one other member on Saturday, and I know several planned to come on the Sunday from Sheffield. Will report back here.

I suspect many of us know one or more folk who might otherwise be expected to come along, but get detained by 'Life...!', as Marvin from Hitchiker's Guide' might have put it. Unfortunately Life can be a damned nuisance at times; I have even heard of weddings, anniversaries and birthdays given as 'excuses' in the past. How unreasonable can you get? (drops John Cleese voice.)

I remember late September as 'conference season' from an earlier academic occupation, and I wonder how significant this factor might be among our traditional non-Scaleforum-attending membership? Clearly it doesn't seem to have hampered Leatherhead attendances too much though.

Also, late Summer holidays can impinge on the date; indeed our own Norfolk jaunt was planned to put me in close range for the weekend of the show, although I would have come anyway. Again, not specific to Aylesbury.

Another factor - how many in the North (and elsewhere of course), faced with Scaleforum and Manchester shows on consecutive weekends, feel free to attend both shows, faced with other commitments? Some may have had to face this choice (I did) and plumped for Manchester; perhaps they will choose Scaleforum next year, and alternate. We cannot all attend every show that we might like.

So, plenty of reasonable reasons not to have attended, despite Terry and the Team's best efforts. Perhaps there was just an unusual concatenation of chance events this year. (Go and read Tom Rolt's measuredly horrific account of the Abermule smash in 'Red for Danger' to see how a series of small slips created a fatal disaster; at least nobody got killed at Scaleforum). My impression was of a splendid show, I wished I could have attended on the Sunday too, but enjoyed the entire Saturday to the full.

I think the main addition I would like, echoing other comments, is a better place to congregate with mates, show and discuss models. That tiered seating 'Up in The Gods' didn't appeal to me at all - is there a side room that could be booked nearby? One of my traditional delights at Scalefour North is to meet and natter over lunch/coffee with pals I only meet once a year -and I suspect that is part of the 'atmosphere' that seems to have been missed by some.

There. That's my piece, hope it provides some directions for Terry & Co to explore! Thanks again all, for a very enjoyable first time at Aylesbury.

Roll on Scalefour North and Scaleforum 2014; and I must try harder to make Scalefour South West again after a gap of 28 years.....

BW

Steve

[LesGros]

John A wrote:

... Yes, it would cost a grand to do but might pay dividends. It might also be worth another say £500 to get a professional researcher to write it? ...

John,
Personally, I would be very annoyed if our committee committed the folly of wasting around £1500 on market research! Even doing it as an "in-house exercise" would be a major effort which is most unlikely to leave us much the wiser, and it would distract from the good things our committee do for us.

This entire 17 page thread has become an exercise in market research. Having followed it from the beginning, the only reason for not attending that I can think of, which has not been mentioned so far, is sheer cussedness; an attribute applicable only to very few of those who share their views on these Fora.

Nothing is implied in this post, the reader may infer what the reader wishes...

[Martin Wynne]

And in spite all all the words that have been written in the last 24 hours, there have been very few actual answers to my question, apart from those who were unable to come because of illness, distance or other factors beyond their control, which of course will always happen.

Hi Terry,

I couldn't get to Scaleforum because of the latter reasons you mention, but here are a few things which would have made me even more sorry to have missed it:

A cloakroom area in which to leave coats, bags, parcels, etc., to avoid having to lug them around with you all day. This is my biggest single gripe about many exhibitions nowadays. There was a time when almost all public venues provided such facilities.

Plenty of places to sit down and chat, including tables where you can examine purchases with friends, read your new books, etc.

Some layouts at normal table height with a row of chairs in front them. This is standard procedure for the demonstrators, so why not the layouts? What's the difference? Why do we have to stand up all day?

A much later closing time (possibly balanced by a later opening). It's no fun having to set off before dawn if you have a fair way to travel and want to have time to see the whole show properly. Much the best feature of the old Manchester show was the Friday evening opening, where a relaxed club atmosphere developed quite unlike the rest of the weekend. Opening Scaleforum on the Friday evening might not be feasible, but why not stay open (or reopen after a break) on the Saturday? Perhaps for members only after say 6pm?

regards,

Martin.