Scaleforum 2013

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Mike Garwood
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Scaleforum 2013

Postby Mike Garwood » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:59 am

Scaleforum in Aylesbury from 2013? Really?

Comments from those that know would be useful...

Mike

David Bigcheeseplant
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:34 pm

If you look at Scalefour News an issue back in the chairman’s bit, then you will see about looking at other venues and Stoke Mandeville Stadium was high in the list of alternative places.

I must admit I am not too sure how a move would impact on either Scaleforum or Railex that I organise in May, As both are similar finescale/modellers shows, with the same type traders and visitors, although Railex has the benefit of being able to invite all scales and gauges rather than just P4.

I have been in contact with both Jim and Terry with some of the issues they would face if Scaleforum moved to Aylesbury, although any decision would be for the Scalefour committee to make, and although I would support Scaleforum at any venue I would find if difficult to play any part in the organisation due to other my commitments and Railex through the year, one of the biggest problems would be manpower it takes around 50 people to steward Railex each day from Friday to Sunday.

I would be interested in what members think would they visit either shows or just one. Railex has in the past few years had more P4 layouts than any other scales anyway this year we have six for more details wwwrailex.org.uk

David

martin goodall
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby martin goodall » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:03 pm

The misinformation to which I drew attention may have arisen due to the absence of any details of the main Scaleforum event in the S4 Calendar, although it is mentioned in the S4 Main Index.

As regards the possibility of the Stoke Mandeville venue for 2013, I would see no problem with that. David Lane can rest assured that S4rum in September would certainly not keep me away from Railex in May. Railex is a definite 'must go to' event so far as I am concerned. Two different events in the same venue 4 months apart would certainly not deter me, and I am sure that would go for most people.

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Penrhos1920
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby Penrhos1920 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:14 pm

David,

I've just looked up going to Aylesbury by train and compared it with Leatherhead. Last year I arrived at S4um at about 11.30am having left Eaglecliffe (Teesside) on a direct Lodon train at 7.30am. According to the timetables I can get into Aylesbury at 12 noon leaving on the same train and then I've got to get to the show. The problem is the slower journey out of London and that the trains are less frequent.

The up side is that the return journey could be interesting as it is via Princes Risborough and Banbury. But I'd had to leave the show earlier and would get home an hour later.

I'm sure that many people coming for the day via Lodon will feel the same as me; the London Leatherhead part of the journey is better than London Aylesbury.

Richard
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David Bigcheeseplant
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:22 pm

Penrhos1920 wrote:David,

I've just looked up going to Aylesbury by train and compared it with Leatherhead. Last year I arrived at S4um at about 11.30am having left Eaglecliffe (Teesside) on a direct Lodon train at 7.30am. According to the timetables I can get into Aylesbury at 12 noon leaving on the same train and then I've got to get to the show. The problem is the slower journey out of London and that the trains are less frequent.

The up side is that the return journey could be interesting as it is via Princes Risborough and Banbury. But I'd had to leave the show earlier and would get home an hour later.

I'm sure that many people coming for the day via Lodon will feel the same as me; the London Leatherhead part of the journey is better than London Aylesbury.

Richard


If you are coming from the north why not go via Birmingham on the Chiltern line, you need to change at Risborough, but you don't need to go into London, also Chiltern Railways have upped the line speed from London to Birmingham.

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David Thorpe
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby David Thorpe » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:54 pm

I'd rather hoped that if there was to be a change of venue, it would make it rather easier for people coming from the north, especially the Far North. Aylesbury doesn't seem to offer any advantages - Dundee - Leatherhead 7hrs 18mins, involving a station change in London; Dundee - Aylesbury 7hrs 47, also involving the one station change in London. These appear to be the fastest times - there are several slower!

DT

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Will L
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby Will L » Thu Feb 23, 2012 6:10 pm

While its true that I can see no advantage if I go by train (from Crewe), however I would expect a very considerable saving if car bound because I won't need to spend a fair proportion of the year on the M25, and it would be fair bit quicker than the train too, M6/M1 willing. Rail times may well improve if/when the Milton Keynes/Oxford rail link is introduced

Will

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jim s-w
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby jim s-w » Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:05 pm

DaveyTee wrote:I'd rather hoped that if there was to be a change of venue, it would make it rather easier for people coming from the north, especially the Far North. Aylesbury doesn't seem to offer any advantages - Dundee - Leatherhead 7hrs 18mins, involving a station change in London; Dundee - Aylesbury 7hrs 47, also involving the one station change in London. These appear to be the fastest times - there are several slower!

DT


Isn't that what scalefour north is for? Yes nearly 16 hours travelling is a long time (can you fly part of the way?) but you can bet pretty much everyone involved in putting the show on has put in a lot more hours than that, each, and all for free.

Any show will always be badly placed for some, I am afraid thats never going to change

Cheers

Jim

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David Thorpe
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby David Thorpe » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:18 pm

jim s-w wrote:Isn't that what scalefour north is for?

Do remember that for some of us, Scalefour North is actually Scalefour Pretty Far South. Dundee - Wakefield fastest time: 4hrs 47. London to Wakefield - 1hr 56.

However, I'm not moaning - just pointing out. I fully appreciate the impracticalities of having a show of that type north of the border, so am very happy to be booked in for Scalefour North and am looking forward to it. I'll expect to see a lot of southerners at the AGM, mind you!

DT

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Penrhos1920
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby Penrhos1920 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:22 pm

jim s-w wrote:Isn't that what scalefour north is for? ....

..Jim


If only. By writing that I can only assume that you haven't been to both shows recently. They aren't the same, and probably don't attempt to be the same. One has lots more small, useful traders that the other, plus a couple more layouts.


Big Cheeseplant wrote:If you are coming from the north why not go via Birmingham on the Chiltern line, you need to change at Risborough, but you don't need to go into London, also Chiltern Railways have upped the line speed from London to Birmingham.


The journey time from the north east is about the same according to the on-line timetable regardless of whether you go via London or Birmingham. The online planner prefers that I go via London and return via Birmingham. Booking as far in advance as I can at the moment; London costs £60, Birmingham £82.

I thought that Chilterns London to Birmingham route bypassed Aylesbury? At least it used to when I lived in Harrow.
Getting it Alright

Penrhos Junctions near Caerphilly - Barry Rly, Rhymney Rly and A(N&SW)D&R 1920 and pseudo modern image in S4F
and
Awrhyllgwami for DEMU challenge
and
Dispelling the P4 drop in wheel myth
and
TOERAG Obergruppenführer

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jim s-w
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby jim s-w » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:01 pm

Penrhos1920 wrote:
jim s-w wrote:Isn't that what scalefour north is for? ....

..Jim


If only. By writing that I can only assume that you haven't been to both shows recently.



Attended Scaleforum in 2011 and S4 north in 2010 (both times as an exhibitor) I agree they have a different feel but both are provided for the members by the society. Yes S4north is smaller but still supplies many of the same traders and the quality of the layouts and demos at both are comparable.

Chers

Jim

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby Rod Cameron » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:51 pm

As with Martin, if Scaleforum ends up at the Stoke Mandeville stadium it won't make any difference to my attendance at both Railex and Scaleforum. Both are essential dates in the calendar.
Rod

David Bigcheeseplant
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby David Bigcheeseplant » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:31 am

"I thought that Chilterns London to Birmingham route bypassed Aylesbury? At least it used to when I lived in Harrow."

It does, so you need to change at Princes Risborough, or get off the train at Thame & Haddenham parkway and get a half hourly bus to Aylesbury, this should knock some off the total journey time.

I have no idea where Scaleforum will be in 2013 all I do know is that the committee have been looking at other venues as the cost of Leatherhead has risen since the refurbish, and Aylesbury is in the running, I am sure if anyone can suggest other venues Terry would be pleased to hear from you.

Where ever Scaleforum ends up it will be bad for some and better for others, at least with Aylesbury I can walk there, on the other hand I have never had a problem in driving to Leatherhead, or before that getting the train to City University.

I do wonder if Scalefourum could fill Stoke Mandeville stadium as it 20000 sq feet, and can swollow up some very large layouts, finding 20 P4 layouts each year to fill the space may prove quite hard. I normally devote half the hall at Railex to 4mm scales while the other half is 2mm, 3mm, S Scale and 7mm scales

David

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David Thorpe
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby David Thorpe » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:41 am

David Bigcheeseplant wrote:"I have no idea where Scaleforum will be in 2013 all I do know is that the committee have been looking at other venues..........I am sure if anyone can suggest other venues Terry would be pleased to hear from you.

Somewhere like Peterborough would be good, at least geographically. Good road and rail links with easy access from the North, London, Birmingham, Leeds, East Anglia.... But I only make that suggestion on geographic grounds - I have no idea what if any venues would be suitable there, or how convenient it would be for it to be organised there.

DT

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John Bateson
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby John Bateson » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:56 am

It was always to be expected that the costs for Leatherhead would rise substantially after the major refurbishment and change of management. The Committee has done rather well in managing to hold the close to historic prices. I suspect the new costs for 2013 would be not too dissimilar from the average for this sort of venue and have simply risen to meet what the market will pay.
Also to be kept in mind must be the effort expended in organising these sort of events, it will always be a lot less work if the organising team lives relatively close to the venue - the amount of work and travel should not be underestimated by we simple folk who just pay the £6 entry fee.

So, Aylesbury's gain is Leatherhead's loss - I expect there will be some change in the profile of visitors, especially those who would rely on the M25 from the South Coast, but other areas may find attendance much easier. From the near North it is far easier to get to by car although my own journey from N. Wales will be slightly more difficult and a little longer.

John
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby Armchair Modeller » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:28 am

Maybe there should be a Scalefour South East to cater for people around London who don't want to travel far. Then, Scalefourum would be free to move somewhere more central, as a truly national exhibition.

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HowardGWR
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby HowardGWR » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:04 pm

For me, the salient factors are:
- What is there for my wife to visit during the two days (historical, arty-crafty, garden, cycle and walking trails)?
- Is it an urban nightmare? (bypasses, malls, etc), I am (we are) easily depressed by this stuff
- are there reasonable digs nearby with little risk of your tyres being slashed in the car park(happened to me at EMGS Bracknell)
- could one leave the car at home? Motoring long distances is a pain in the .... nowadays, highly unpleasant and quite dangerous to boot, as is now evidenced by so many younger people taking to rail. Interestingly, the latter notion does not seem to permeate to railway modellers (clearly exhibitors have to use road).

My chief problem has been that, during the shows, I keep thinking I would rather have been with my wife, strolling along a peaceful river bank, than mooching about the show, frankly.

Am I in the wrong hobby? :D

rule55
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby rule55 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:23 pm

I tend towards DaveyTee's view on this. Aylesbury isn't the easiest place to get to by public transport from anywhere further north (and I'm much further north although not quite as north as Davey) and, whilst I fully appreciate the time and effort put in by those that organise/demonstrate/exhibit, surely accessibility should be a consideration. I suppose the ideal location (for us that journey by train, anyway) would be the centre of a large city with good rail connections, it's just rather unfortunate that these are exactly the sort of places that won't have suitable and affordable venues or suitable parking for those that need to travel by road (and I'm guessing that would be the majority of exhibitors and traders!)

jim s-w wrote:
Any show will always be badly placed for some, I am afraid thats never going to change

Cheers

Jim


I appreciate that it must be a difficult task to find suitable venues and I certainly don't want to infer any criticism to those that work so hard at organising Scaleforum but the views of those who would struggle to get there are no less valid than any others, surely?

Roll on the AGM.. :)

Tony

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby Rod Cameron » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:23 pm

I'm sure Terry and the committee are fully aware of all the transportation, financial and convenience factors, but the fact remains that after considerable searching there just aren't that many suitable venues around. And as Jim says (and it's not a case of disregarding anyone's views) no venue is going to suit everyone. Urban, suburban, rural, public transport, car parking, catering etc etc - there are good and bad points for any location.

Given the population distribution (and I assume the Society membership reflects that) somewhere not far from London on the SW (e.g. Leatherhead), W or NW (e.g. Aylesbury) sides is likely to be closer to more members than anywhere else, although if Scalefour North didn't exist there would undoubtedly be a case for a more central England venue. So that caters for Scalefour South East as well, although I don't think we need another event to find organisers for anyway.

To me it's also very much a case of quality. To paraphrase 'Field of Dreams', if it's good then people will come.
Rod

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jim s-w
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby jim s-w » Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:44 pm

rule55 wrote:
the views of those who would struggle to get there are no less valid than any others, surely?

Tony


Absolutely Tony. The point I was making is that these views will always be there regardless of the location. If we took in the views of those who say its too far (as valid as they are) there would never be a show. Its unfortunate but its how it is. Also remember that the location is no good if its 500 miles from the guys organising it even if its ideal for the whole.

Cheers

Jim

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dcockling
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby dcockling » Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:31 pm

Ignoring all of the other factors, and there are a lot of other factors, here are some figures to give you all an idea of how many members there are in proximity to several exhibition venues.

These are the percentages of our UK based members that live within 75km of each of these existing model railway exhibition venues:

Scaleforum at Leatherhead 30%; Railex at Stoke Mandeville 26%; DEMU Showcase 15%; Manchester MRS 14%; Warley NEC 13%; Doncaster 13%; Scalefour North at Wakefield 12.5%; Peterborough (Warners) 8%; York 6%; Railex North East 3%; Glasgow (on this weekend) 2.5%.

Spookily enough when I've looked back I find that, not counting the many members that take part in our events as workers, exhibitors, demonstrators, etc, that the proportion of our total membership that pays to come to our shows is very close to the percentages above. Some year's it's a bit higher, but overall around 30% of our members come to Leatherhead and around 13% to Scalefour North. Of course they're not all local, some travel a very long way indeed.

All the Best
Danny

DougN
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby DougN » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:37 pm

Come on Danny, can you give the percentage of members who attend form outside the country?

I do find it rather interesting as the over seas members that do get to the show... yes I have been twice in 14years enjoyed both times.... and still can't figure out a way to make it back this year.... my brownie points with SWMBO keep expiring.... :cry:
Doug
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David Thorpe
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby David Thorpe » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:30 pm

dcockling wrote:Some year's it's a bit higher, but overall around 30% of our members come to Leatherhead and around 13% to Scalefour North.

If one assumes that some of the above go to both, it means that about 60% of the UK membership go to neither. It would be interesting to know why.

DT

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dcockling
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby dcockling » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:47 am

DougN wrote:Come on Danny, can you give the percentage of members who attend form outside the country?

Hi Doug,

Sorry there's no info on that, as we don't ask people who buy their tickets on the day where they've come from. I think that there have been some surveys in the past, but I don't have the results, and I think they were on the basis of "stick a pin in a map" and were just meant as a bit of fun.

All the Best
Danny

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dcockling
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Re: Scaleforum 2013

Postby dcockling » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:08 am

DaveyTee wrote:If one assumes that some of the above go to both, it means that about 60% of the UK membership go to neither. It would be interesting to know why.DT


Of course it's not the same people who go or don't go each year and I expect there are as many reasons as there are people for attending or not attending.

From my own experience, and I've been a member without a break since 1978; the Scaleforum weekend often clashes with the weekend nearest to my son's birthday. Before he was born I went every year, when he was little I had to stay at home for his birthday, when he was a bit older, we both went to Scaleforum, then when he was a bit older still he didn't want to (not interested in trains), and he was still young enough that I had to stay at home for his birthday. Also for many years I had a job that involved Saturday working. Later still when my son was too old to want or need Dad on his birthday, Scaleforum clashed with a local beer festival that all my (non model railway) friends went to. If you add in all the other, perfectly normal calls on my time and purse strings, I'd say that I missed a lot of Society shows, but got there when I could, or when I wanted too, as although I've never lost interest, this hobby hasn't always been my top priority. I only became involved in the way that I now am when I knew that I had the time, money and interest to do be able to do so.

This year Scalefour North (Saturday) falls on my aged mother's birthday :( and that could be more of a problem than any of the above. I'll have to ask nicely :)

All the Best
Danny


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