Converting to DCC

Discuss your experiences with systems, decoders, installations, wiring, control and any general hints & tips you have found.
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John Bateson
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Converting to DCC

Postby John Bateson » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:45 pm

I reached the decision a couple of years ago that I needed DCC to keep things working reliably. It was all very well running with standard Gaugemaster controllers after I had cleaned the track and cleaned the engine wheels but intermittent running sessions meant this chore had to be gone through every time I needed to test something.
I decided to standardise on NCE equipment - big on keeping things simple I am - and the PowerCab arrived suitably wrapped on my birthday in June 2007. It has taken until this year to get something converted successfully.
I rapidly discovered the D13 decoders I had ordered as a 'cheap' set of Qty 10 direct from the USofA wouldn't fit so now am buying the Z14 for all the small tank engines. One set back was to find after a great deal of messing around that my very first decoder was faulty!
And during this process I am upgrading the various chassis so that I can have removeable pickup blocks, so it is not going very quickly. So far this has meant a complete new paint job for each chassis.
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

nigelcliffe
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby nigelcliffe » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:41 pm

I would suggest trying other decoder makers.
The huge benefit of DCC being a standard is that any decoder should work on any system. (The exceptions are a few decoders or controllers which are not technically compliant with the standard).

With my locos (2mm, 4mm and 7mm scales), I find the premium decoders; eg. Zimo, CT Elektronik and Lenz; give better motor control when compared to cheaper alternatives (eg. Digitrax, TCS and Gaugemaster (rebadged MRC I think) ).

If you can find space for a uniteruptable power supply module (either the Lenz Gold add-on power pack, or normal electrolytic capacitors for Zimo) then you should find that a loco will ride tiny interuptions to power, such as dirty track or limited number of wheels with pickups.
I have a Scale-7 Simplex from an Impetus kit, which I originally built to normal O-gauge many years ago. It has a rigid 4 wheel chassis, and thus prone to stutter over pointwork (three wheels on the track, one in the air). Fitting a capactor to the Zimo chip in this has transformed the running, the capacitor only runs for a minute fraction of a second (too small to see until I changed the original 200uF capacitor for a massive 4700uF), but even 100 or 200uF is enough to keep the loco going over a microscopic interuption to power.

For smaller locos, I find the CT chips onboard tiny capacitors seem to stay alive slightly better over interuptions than any other (which is bizarre given their tiny size). But, I mostly use CT chips in 2mm scale locos and would be a bit cautious about their power handling on larger models. I do have one in a 4mm sale High Level Coronation 0-4-0T because I couldn't get a Zimo MX620 inside the boiler/tank without attacking the already built loco with a grinder/cutter.


- Nigel

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Tim V
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby Tim V » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:21 pm

The single most impressive thing recently to improve reliability of DCC controlled trains was cleaning the steel rails and wheels using Slater's track cleaner with cotton buds, a tip I got from Gordon Gravett. The difference in running was phenomenal.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

Dave Holt
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby Dave Holt » Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:41 pm

I don't claim any technical expertisein this area, but when I decided to DCC my existing loco fleet (mainlt fitted with 1616 Portescaps) I initially fitted one each of ZTC, Digitrax and Lenz (all driven from a Lenz controller). These were genertally intended for Z gauge because I hadn't left any spare room for chips when building the locos in the first place. This test wasn't very scientific because the chips were fitted to three different locos which might have had different running qualities on ordinary DC. After adjusting the various CV's to suit each loco, I couldn't really detect much difference in quality of performance from the different makes. Probably, the ZTC was marginally the best, but might just have been in the best running loco. In the end I chose to standardise on the Digitrax DZ123. I dismissed the Lenz because it wasn't fully encapsulated, making installation more critical to avoid the risk of shorting out on bits of the loco. The Digitrax was encapsulated and, to be honest, on some locos the chip just sits where it fits (inside boilers, under the motor and, in one case, just resting on top of the frame spacers), the guy I bought from gave super customer service and a discount for bulk purchase. I've not experienced any faulty chips and am happy with my choice, although the feed-back type DZ143 might have been a better, if slightly more expensice, choice.
That said, I have heard people who are really into the technicalities rave over the Zimo chips, but I have no personal experience.

I'm sure Tim is right. There's no substitute for clean track and whells for good running, whatever power system is used.

Dave.

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steve howe
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby steve howe » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:50 pm

As a complete novice with all things electrical, I have recently inherited a number of locos fitted with Escap RG4 motors and gearbox. Their builder originally intended to run them on a Pentroller, and as part of our refurbishment programme we are considering converting the layout and its locomotives to DCC to simplify some hideously complex wiring.

Has anyone any experiences/advice on using these motors on DCC? I am hoping they are suitable because we have quite a stock of them!

Steve

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Tim V
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby Tim V » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:02 pm

You can set the parameters in the chip to control coreless motors and the running will be much superior to any DC controller.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

nigelcliffe
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby nigelcliffe » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:49 am

steve howe wrote:As a complete novice with all things electrical, I have recently inherited a number of locos fitted with Escap RG4 motors and gearbox. Their builder originally intended to run them on a Pentroller, and as part of our refurbishment programme we are considering converting the layout and its locomotives to DCC to simplify some hideously complex wiring.

Has anyone any experiences/advice on using these motors on DCC? I am hoping they are suitable because we have quite a stock of them!


Most modern chips are high enough frequency to work with coreless motors.

Top-end chips, such as Zimo have specific settings and advice in their instructions for setting up coreless motors. In my experience, Zimo work "straight from the packet" and its very rare to need to change motor performance CV's in them, and their performance is superior to other makers, including some which cost more.
Zimo are also upgradeable, so if a change is made by the manufacturer (which might be motor control related) then it can be applied to an existing chip; a fairly recent change was a feature to control the take-up of the back-lash in gears when going from forward to reverse.

- Nigel

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Paul Willis
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby Paul Willis » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:25 am

nigelcliffe wrote:Top-end chips, such as Zimo have specific settings and advice in their instructions for setting up coreless motors. In my experience, Zimo work "straight from the packet" and its very rare to need to change motor performance CV's in them, and their performance is superior to other makers, including some which cost more.
Zimo are also upgradeable, so if a change is made by the manufacturer (which might be motor control related) then it can be applied to an existing chip; a fairly recent change was a feature to control the take-up of the back-lash in gears when going from forward to reverse.

- Nigel


Having seen, on Sunday at 2mmExpo, Nigel's loco do its little dance of sequential moves for the remote-controlled DCC uncoupling function, it seems that there is very little that these chips cannot be made to do.

IIRC, Nigel has programmed the chip so that a single button press takes the slack off the coupling, uncouples it, and then moves slightly away again, all in a 2mm loco and taking place anywhere on the layout that you wish. Very clever indeed. Not *quite* up with getting a Renault F1 car to play the National Anthem, but I'm sure that it's only a matter of time...

What amazed me was that there seemed to be a higher proportion of 2mmFS layouts using DCC than I have previously noticed in 4mm. Given the difficulty of inserting the chip in such timy vehicles, this struck me as remarkable.

Flymo
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Russ Elliott
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby Russ Elliott » Wed Jul 07, 2010 10:52 am

Flymo748 wrote:What amazed me was that there seemed to be a higher proportion of 2mmFS layouts using DCC than I have previously noticed in 4mm. Given the difficulty of inserting the chip in such timy vehicles, this struck me as remarkable.

For the low masses in 2mm, the high voltage on the track is a definite incentive.

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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby nigelcliffe » Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:38 am

Flymo748 wrote:Having seen, on Sunday at 2mmExpo, Nigel's loco do its little dance of sequential moves for the remote-controlled DCC uncoupling function, it seems that there is very little that these chips cannot be made to do.

IIRC, Nigel has programmed the chip so that a single button press takes the slack off the coupling, uncouples it, and then moves slightly away again, all in a 2mm loco and taking place anywhere on the layout that you wish. Very clever indeed. Not *quite* up with getting a Renault F1 car to play the National Anthem, but I'm sure that it's only a matter of time...


A reasonable summary of what it does. The chip in the Class-04 which you looked at is a CT DCX75, though Zimo's can do the same stuff; the class 24 has a Zimo, as do most of my 4mm locos with the remote coupler.

The movement is possible without the coupling being fitted. Its possible to have a function key cause a loco to backup enough to relieve coupler tension; this on its own is incredibly useful. The CT and Zimo chips have settings which will allow movement which is smaller than a sleeper width.

Its not "programming" as such, its just exploiting the CV variables the chip makers supply to do tricks. Most of the tricks are there for owners of posh trainsets with German brandnames on them.

(Quick sales pitch link- I still have etches for the 4mm AJ version available, but don't have any coils at the moment ).


What amazed me was that there seemed to be a higher proportion of 2mmFS layouts using DCC than I have previously noticed in 4mm. Given the difficulty of inserting the chip in such timy vehicles, this struck me as remarkable.


I think its motor control and improved pickup. What happend a couple of years ago was a few people realised how to setup CT chips to work extremely well, and they are small enough to go inside most standard gauge locos in 2mm scale. The motor control from a CT decoder on a small motor has to be seen to be believed.


- Nigel

David Thorpe

Re: Converting to DCC

Postby David Thorpe » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:34 am

As I'm about to build a new layout, and as my current analogue control system is on it last legs, it didn't take much for the nice chaps on the Digitrains stand at Scalefour North to persuade me to go DCC, albeit not before I had also received some very helpful advice from exhibitors, in particular Robin Whittle and James Dickie - many thanks guys. I therefore came away with an NCE PowerCab starter set, a couple of decoders, and a wallet that was much lighter than I had intended (but 'twas ever thus at Society shows). Since then I've been reading up about DCC, and have found that quite a lot of people recommend that a circuit breaker should also be installed - indeed, some suggest that it is an essential although others say that it offers no more protection than does the PowerCab itself. Favourite seems to be the PSX-1. I'm a bit reluctant to splash out a further £30 or so, but if it's really a worthwhile add-on that will prevent me frying expensive decoders, than so be it. I'd be very grateful for any advice as to whether this really is a good investment at this stage.

DT

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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby nigelcliffe » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:31 am

Breakers such as the PSX don't really directly protect loco decoders. Though they can offer some indirect protection.

Their purpose is to shut down the track power to a section of track in the event of a short circuit. As such, they protect the command station and also mean that other parts of the layout (with separate breakers) continues to operate. With more powerful command stations the breaker also limits the current in any section to a lower level than the total current available from the command station (a good thing in my view, it's a rare 4mm scale layout that needs more than 1.5A in any section, yet people buy 5A and even 10A command stations. If a section has 5A, then it's wiring needs to be heavier to cope with the new maximum currents).


Normally, for starting out and on a very small layout, I'd not bother with breakers. But, there are a number of threads about inadequate short protection in PowerCabs, so I might consider it. The issue is whether you leave a short unattended for more than a few seconds; the threads seem to indicate that the PowerCab can (eventually) get damaged by this. If you clear the short quickly (or fit a simple track-power on/off switch so you can turn off power), then the breaker is not needed.


Protection inside decoders from faults varies between decoder makers. Many US decoder brands seem to offer no internal protection; short circuit the motor or function outputs of a typical US decoder and "pfff" goes part of the decoder. (In various very messy bench experiments, the only decoders I've ever blown are TCS). In contrast, many EU decoder makers fit internal short protection, and will even report where the short is occurring. I doubt the protection can be proof against everything, but it's pretty effective. Lenz document it being present inside their decoders, as do Zimo. I know Zimo works as I've shorted Zimo's (in the same messy bench experiments), and nothing adverse happens.



In terms of add-ons for PowerCab, I think the best two are: Programming Track Auto Switch and USB interface. The former properly separates programming instructions from going to the layout; thus you can make changes on a proper programming track and not the entire layout. The latter gives computer access into the PowerCab and allows use of a computer to setup decoders which saves hours of faffing with key presses to change CV values (and optionally can run the layout should you wish).


Hope this helps.

- Nigel

David Thorpe

Re: Converting to DCC

Postby David Thorpe » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:17 am

nigelcliffe wrote:In terms of add-ons for PowerCab, I think the best two are: Programming Track Auto Switch and USB interface. The former properly separates programming instructions from going to the layout; thus you can make changes on a proper programming track and not the entire layout. The latter gives computer access into the PowerCab and allows use of a computer to setup decoders which saves hours of faffing with key presses to change CV values (and optionally can run the layout should you wish).


Many thanks for your very helpful post, Nigel. As far as the Programming Track Auto Switch is concerned, my intention is to have a separate portable test track about a meter long which I would use both to test and programme locos. It would be fitted with a PowerCab panel and would probably spend most of its time by my workbench, which is in a different room from my layout. I had hoped that that would negate the necessity of the Auto Switch and as I don't have a laptop, this track could also be taken up to my computer for use with the USB interface, the purchase of which which is an excellent suggestion, thank you - on reading the manual with the PowerCab i had become quite bewildered by all the CV changes!

I'm still undecided about the PSX-1. I suppose that as a beginner in DCC I'm very worried about doing silly things with wiring and/or decoders. I've started with two decoders, one a Zimo and the other a Digitrax - it was suggested that I buy a premium one and a cheaper one to see if I could really tell any difference so I could have a more informed idea what to buy in future.

DT

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John Bateson
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby John Bateson » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:37 am

I also have a test track using a metre of Exactoscale rail fitted on a piece of 3x1 inch pine and a plug to the Powercab.
This sits easily in front of my PC and Decoder Pro via the NCE USB device which I thoroughly recommend.

What I would also recommend is fitting buffer stops to the end of the 1 metre rail! One end of the run has a drop from the desk to the carpet and twice now I have failed to stop the locos before the end with embarassing results.

John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby nigelcliffe » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:53 am

DaveyTee wrote:I've started with two decoders, one a Zimo and the other a Digitrax - it was suggested that I buy a premium one and a cheaper one to see if I could really tell any difference so I could have a more informed idea what to buy in future.


I'd be very surprised if you cannot tell the difference !
If you really cannot tell, then I'd like to go through the settings to work out why you cannot see any difference.

Its a different matter as to whether that difference is worth the money; that's where value come in to play. Is a sprung chassis and etched kit worth the money over the same loco from Bachmann/Hornby ?

- Nigel

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Tim V
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby Tim V » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:21 pm

Note!

There is no such thing as a cheap decoder - you get what you pay for - and invariably, you end up buying the decoder you should have bought in the first place.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

David Thorpe

Re: Converting to DCC

Postby David Thorpe » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:15 pm

That I suppose is like a lot of things in life, though occasionally one get a pleasant surprise. I know that Zimo decoders are highly regarded, and from what you say I suppose that Digitrax are not. There seem to be lots of makes now - are you able to recommend the better ones, or is it really just a matter of price, say £25+ very good, £25- not so good for a basic decoder? I should say that the quality of loco running is my main priority rather than some of the gizmos that one can also get.

DT

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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby nigelcliffe » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:57 pm

Price is no guarantee of quality. I've had some quite expensive decoders handed to me inside models to "sort out the settings" and they were quite poor no matter what settings I changed.

My own view is that I've not seen a better decoder than Zimo for 4mm scale models. That is in terms of quality of motor control and ability to fine-tune the running characteristics of the loco. There is also a very large box of "bells and whistle" effects which might have some use (and I do use some of them). But I see those features as secondary, if the loco runs poorly, then I am not interested in the bells and whistles.
The price differential over cheaper brands isn't great for me (a handful of locos), but I can see the price being significant for someone wanting to convert a fleet of two dozen in one go.
For very small 4mm models I would consider a CT decoder (smallest decoder available by a substantial margin), and I use those as "standard" in 2mm scale.

But, sometimes you get a model which won't play ball with some decoders and another decoder maker works really well in that model.

No decoder can fix poor mechanical qualities. If the loco runs like a dog, it will continue to run like a dog with a decoder inside it, and the presence of the decoder will make it harder to diagnose what is wrong. ( A poorly running loco was handed to me which had a decoder fitted, with a request to sort out it's CV's so it would run properly. Some time later, the underlying cause was identified an out-of-balance flywheel; fix that and the decoder control circuit was no longer fighting against the motor being driven by the flywheel......)


- Nigel

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steve howe
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby steve howe » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:53 am

I have recently acquired a Gaugemaster Prodigy DCC01 to play with, its the most basic version, but I only want to make things go - no bells and whistles etc. Can anyone advise on a reasonably priced decoder with basic function? I have had a look at this:
BACHMANN 2-FUNCTION DCC DECODER 8 PIN PLUG - 36-552

Also, when using decoders fitted with plugs intended for DCC ready locos, do you have to get a suitable socket to make the connections to the loco? I assume in a basic set-up its 2 wires from the pickups and 2 wires to the motor, or do you simply discard the fitted plug and solder the relevant wires in place?

Sorry to be naive :-? this is new territory for me!

Steve
Last edited by steve howe on Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nigelcliffe
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby nigelcliffe » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:47 pm

steve howe wrote:I have recently acquired a Gaugemaster Prodigy DCC01 to pay with, its the most basic version, but I only want to make things go - no bells and whistles etc. Can anyone advise on a reasonably priced decoder with basic function? I have had a look at this:
BACHMANN 2-FUNCTION DCC DECODER 8 PIN PLUG - 36-552


Your choice, but its a very old design of very basic decoder, lacking much in the way of settings to adjust its performance.
I'd spend more for something decent and of a current design. Suggest looking at the Lenz Standard or a TCS decoder. Or if willing to go a bit higher in price, the entry Zimo decoder.

Decoder quality comes in various places, some of it is in extra features (lots of lights, etc), but some of it is in the quality of the motor control in the decoder. The best offer markedly superior motor control and a lot of ability to fine-tune that behaviour so the loco performs exactly as you want it to. As the old slogan said "getting it ALL right".


Also, when using decoders fitted with plugs intended for DCC ready locos, do you have to get a suitable socket to make the connections to the loco? I assume in a basic set-up its 2 wires from the pickups and 2 wires to the motor, or do you simply discard the fitted plug and solder the relevant wires in place?


Decoders with plugs come in two broad types; those with the pins on the circuit board (often called "direct" in the marketing literature), or those with a lead and a plug at the end. With the latter, you can cut the plug off (though many makers will say that voids the warranty). With the better makers you can buy a decoder without a plug for "hard wiring", and its often a little cheaper.

You can add a socket to an existing loco if you want. That makes changing a decoder quicker, but its more work and cost to install it.

Yes, basic installation is four wires, to pickup and motor, as you indicate. Just be sure that there is no connection from pickup to motor before you fit the decoder.



- Nigel

martin goodall
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby martin goodall » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:02 pm

John Bateson wrote:I reached the decision a couple of years ago that I needed DCC to keep things working reliably. It was all very well running with standard Gaugemaster controllers after I had cleaned the track and cleaned the engine wheels but intermittent running sessions meant this chore had to be gone through every time I needed to test something.


One reason that I have not been tempted by DCC is that there is a substantial body of anedcotal evidence that tends to show that clean track is essential for the reliable operation of DCC. If anything, it sounds as though it is more critical than on an analogue-controlled layout. So John may find that, with intermittent running sessions, the chore of track cleaning still has to be gone through every time he needs to test something.

If you want to avoid the chore of track cleaning, I have found that the answer is to add current collectors to every wheel of a loco, including tender wheels. After I added current collectors to the tender wheels of an 0-6-0 Collett Goods, I found that it will now glide smoothly over the filthiest track, whereas relying solely on the coupled wheels for current collection demanded much cleaner track if stalling and stuttering and the resultant prodding and finger-poking were to be avoided.

For a 6-coupled tender engine, it probably suffices to pick up off the driving wheels plus the tender wheels (12 in total) without also picking up off any bogie or pony wheels, but on tank engines, picking up from bogies or pony wheels in additon to the drivers would seem to be essential. This leaves a problem with 0-6-0 and 2-4-0 or 0-4-2 tank engines, where you have no more than six wheels from which current can be collected in any event. Springing or compensation would seem to be the only answer in this case, but not necessarily a complete answer.

Radio or infra-red control with a re-chargeable on-board battery will obviously be the ultimate answer, but I get the impression that we are still some way from this really getting off the ground.

Meanwhile, I am afraid that DCC appears to me to be a blind alley.

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John McAleely
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby John McAleely » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:27 pm

nigelcliffe wrote:
You can add a socket to an existing loco if you want.


Do you happen to know a reliable source for the sockets? I've tried to figure out the specification from the NMRA website, and cross referencing a couple of online electronics suppliers, but not been positive yet I've got the right thing.

It's the 8 way socket I've tried with, but the 21 pin (?) will also be useful one day. I'm currently tempted to install sockets as a way (I know there are other options) to swicth locos between DC & DCC, when I want to guest them on a DC layout.

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steve howe
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby steve howe » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:09 pm

Your choice, but its a very old design of very basic decoder, lacking much in the way of settings to adjust its performance.
I'd spend more for something decent and of a current design. Suggest looking at the Lenz Standard or a TCS decoder. Or if willing to go a bit higher in price, the entry Zimo decoder.


Thanks Nigel, just the kind of inside information I was looking for, like all new technology this can be a complete minefield to the novice and practical experience is worth every penny. I will have a look at the Zimo and Lenz versions.

martinm

Re: Converting to DCC

Postby martinm » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:23 pm

John,
The only place I've seen the 21 pin socket is as a spare for a Hornby Duchess.
"New Modellers" Online Shop sells:
Hornby Spares - 21 Pin PCB Socket for Hornby Sound Locos, Product Code: X6101
8 pin sockets, bare or on flying leads, seem relatively easy to obtain via that well known auction site.
martin

nigelcliffe
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Re: Converting to DCC

Postby nigelcliffe » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:32 pm

martin goodall wrote:For a 6-coupled tender engine, it probably suffices to pick up off the driving wheels plus the tender wheels (12 in total) without also picking up off any bogie or pony wheels, but on tank engines, picking up from bogies or pony wheels in additon to the drivers would seem to be essential. This leaves a problem with 0-6-0 and 2-4-0 or 0-4-2 tank engines, where you have no more than six wheels from which current can be collected in any event. Springing or compensation would seem to be the only answer in this case, but not necessarily a complete answer.

Radio or infra-red control with a re-chargeable on-board battery will obviously be the ultimate answer, but I get the impression that we are still some way from this really getting off the ground.



Stay alive examples in Part 2 of my article in a future ScaleFour News. Part 2 is practical stuff, so the heavy theory is done. If it fits into 2mm scale 0-4-0 shunter, which is 45mm over the buffers, in a volume of 8x8x4mm, then there are few 4mm locos which are impossible.

Yes, battery systems may be, ultimately, the solution. But I think there are several years wait for fully developed systems and a set of standards which will allow interworking between different maker's systems.


- Nigel


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