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None specific model products

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:50 pm
by jim s-w
Hi all

I wonder if we are sometimes a little guilty of getting caught up in model product marketing trends? To give an example I recently ran out of my favourite Zap superglue and needing something there and then brought some loctite from my local supermarket. To say that the loctite was so much better would be an understatement!

Also on my friend Phil’s recommendation I’ve tried fry powerflow flux and again it’s so much better than anything I’ve tried that’s specifically sold for us modellers.

Anyone else have similar recommendations?

Jim

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:13 pm
by Andy W
Powerflow flux is wonderful stuff but be careful it’s very difficult to clean off and can eat through paint.

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:48 pm
by Crepello
Andy W wrote:Powerflow flux is wonderful stuff but be careful it’s very difficult to clean off and can eat through paint.

That was the reason given by some professional painters for refusing to take on jobs assembled with the aid of this flux. This discussed back in E4um days.

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:32 pm
by Le Corbusier
Crepello wrote:
Andy W wrote:Powerflow flux is wonderful stuff but be careful it’s very difficult to clean off and can eat through paint.

That was the reason given by some professional painters for refusing to take on jobs assembled with the aid of this flux. This discussed back in E4um days.

Surely you just wash and neutralise it .... I recall from the right track dvd on painting and lining the emphasis on this aspect.

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:45 pm
by Alan Turner
Andy W wrote:Powerflow flux is wonderful stuff but be careful it’s very difficult to clean off and can eat through paint.


Not difficult, you use IPA. Then wash with detergent

Regards

Alan

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:13 pm
by Tim V
How about the gallon of white spirit from B&Q (other DIY stores are available), instead of those little tins ...

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:16 pm
by davebradwell
Humbrol seem to have fought back against this one as the last time I tried thinning their paint with B&Q turps it just went into lumps. Any chemists out there to explain....or suggest a way out?

DaveB

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:17 pm
by Alan Turner
davebradwell wrote:....or suggest a way out?

DaveB



Use Humbrol thinners.

regards

Alan

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:23 pm
by dcockling
Flux-off, great stuff, recommended by John Brighton many years ago during the 'Powerflow Flux War' mentioned above.

Just one of several places it can be bought

All the Best
Danny

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:21 pm
by steve howe
Tim V wrote:How about the gallon of white spirit from B&Q (other DIY stores are available), instead of those little tins ...


Indeed, and cellulose thinners! if you happen to live near a Mole Valley Farms, or similar agricultural outlet, its worth looking in the paint and hardware bit, stuff like thinners is often cheaper than even B&Q. Also Wickes own brand contact adhesive is equal to Evo-stik and lots cheaper.

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:22 pm
by steve howe
Alan Turner wrote:
davebradwell wrote:....or suggest a way out?

DaveB



Use Humbrol thinners.

regards

Alan


or lighter fuel?

S

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:33 pm
by tmcsean
Or even the generic Enamel Thinners that comes in an aluminium tin with a conical top - looks like something from the Wizard of Oz but is a lot cheaper than Humbrol. If you're lucky enough to live near a modelling or craft shop.

Tony

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:19 pm
by Flymo748
I had mentioned this as an alternative to DAS...

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5656&p=57335&hilit=tiger#p57335

Cheers
Flymo

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:04 am
by Terry Bendall
tmcsean wrote:Or even the generic Enamel Thinners that comes in an aluminium tin with a conical top


This might be HMG Thinners from HMG Paints. This works well for thinning Humbrol, Precision and Railmatch paints which are the enamel paints that I use, For general cleaning of paint brushes and the air brush the White Spirit sold in the local DIY shop is perfectly good.

Terry Bendall

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:16 am
by Andrew Ullyott
Bought a litre of mek on Amazon for about the same price as a bottle from Slaters. Should last a while. Also bought IPA, pipettes for dispensing paint etc. & small plastic pots for mixing paint this way.
If you’re prepared to buy in bulk, or club together with your mates, it makes sense.

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:57 pm
by John Palmer
Andrew Ullyott wrote:Bought a litre of mek on Amazon for about the same price as a bottle from Slaters. Should last a while.
Andrew, may be worth taking into account the cautionary tale I posted at https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6459&p=68764#p68764. There may well be situations and materials for which the use of an aggressive solvent is appropriate, but the lamination I illustrated shows a case where it was not. This was the outcome of using unbranded MEK acquired cheaply, and I have had no recurrence of this problem since I gritted my teeth and accepted I should bear the expense of a 500ml can of Slater's branded MEK-Pak, which is still an economy compared with the cost of itsy-bitsy little bottles.

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:10 pm
by PeteT
One from Mr Bradwell on the Crab Comet Conversion topic:

A traditional thread locking compound is shellac, often sold as knotting. It can be released with a touch of meths. Good shelf life, too.


Sounds like a good idea, from all angles! (cost, shelf life, general availability...).

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:30 pm
by davebradwell
Thank you. I believe shellac is an old clockmakers trick - I don't suppose there were any young clockmakers then.

Returning to the laminating problems, I found that even Slaters solvent made my walls warp and have to use Di-limonene. Only explanation I've come up with is that I use blocks of aluminium to keep them flat and this may not allow fumes to escape in the way the traditional pile of books would.

DaveB

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:34 pm
by John Palmer
Shellac, it appears, is a resinous secretion of the lac insect that can still be purchased in flake form but is probably more often found nowadays in liquid form as a sanding sealer. Gordon Gravett recommended it for sealing card used to form road surfaces, and I've used it to good effect in that role, so its applications are a good deal more widespread than use as a threadlocker. I used Rustins Shellac Sanding Sealer, which is a mix of shellac, alcohol and 'a special additive to facilitate sanding' (plug by manufacturer). According to Rustins, it should dry to a hard clear film, but this wasn't apparent on the card I treated, perhaps because I was too sparing with it. Meths will remove this form of 'liquid shellac' from brushes used to apply it, and I would also expect acetone to dissove dried shellac, as I have seen it used for this purpose where shellac has been applied as a nail varnish treatment. Since shellac seems to be susceptible to being broken down by a number of spirits/solvents, it would be prudent before committing to its use to check whether it will be affected any such that are likely to come into contact with it.

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:40 pm
by PeteT
I too also have shellac in stock, in my case 'Colron French Polish' which 'contains only pure natural shellac'. It is a Ronseal product though not flamboyant labelled as such. I too purchased mine as a card/foam stiffened, and it did ok but didn't exactly set like hard concrete.

It says to use over existing French polish finishes wipe over the surface with a cloth dampened with white spirit to dissolve any wax & remove dirt prior to treatment.

As you say John, worth trying - but also easy enough to try with a spare bit & bolt & a few of the usual track & wheel cleaning fluids etc.

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:24 am
by Paul Townsend
John Palmer wrote:
Andrew Ullyott wrote:Bought a litre of mek on Amazon for about the same price as a bottle from Slaters. Should last a while.
Andrew, may be worth taking into account the cautionary tale I posted at https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6459&p=68764#p68764. There may well be situations and materials for which the use of an aggressive solvent is appropriate, but the lamination I illustrated shows a case where it was not. This was the outcome of using unbranded MEK acquired cheaply, and I have had no recurrence of this problem since I gritted my teeth and accepted I should bear the expense of a 500ml can of Slater's branded MEK-Pak, which is still an economy compared with the cost of itsy-bitsy little bottles.


Around 10 years ago, my old can of Slaters Mek corroded thru the tin and evaporated !
By all means buy it but decant into a glass sealable bottle.

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:10 pm
by Enigma
The use of Shellac to harden card was extensively recommended in all the magazines when I was a lad and it became a process that was undertaken with a semi-religious zeal by many people - me included! I think I bought the flakes and the meths from the chemist aged around 10 years old and had to answer some probing questions! My card of choice was the sheets placed between layers of Shredded Wheat and I always saved these when the packet was empty and coated them in the magic mix. I actually believe that I might still have some salted away somewhere! When I got back into modelling c.1970/71 George Slater had introduced plasticard which, on the face of it, did away with shellaced card but I still use a lot of card in buildings and use Ronseal Wood Hardener to toughen it up and seal it. No idea what's in it but it does the job and allows me to use up the tin I already had bought for some slightly distressed garden furniture.

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:38 pm
by SteamAle
Shellac - many years ago, after a disaatr0us exhibition with an EM layout that refused to work, having worked perfectly at home, I tried to rescue some track that had been ballasted with granite chips and PVA glue. Nothing doing so the whole lot went in the bin. At the time money was tight and I could ill afford the loss.
I had read in a modelling magazine that one club had used shellac instead of PVA to hold ballast in place as it allowed them to lift the track if they had problems or decided to to change the layout. A litre was purchased from my local builders merchant and I've never looked back. New layout built. A piece of track buckled with the heat that built up in the wooden shed where the layout was stored. Soaked in meths softened the shellac and the track was lifted and subsequently replaced.
I have a large O gauge layout that had granite ballast held in place with shellac and when I decided I needed to lift all the track because the baseboards were too heavy for me to lift as I got older, sundella on top of half inch plywood being 5' x 3'! Meths applied and 90% of the standard Peco track salvaged. The new layout uses 5" thick foam baseboards at 4' x 2' each, so much lighter.
When I get round to finally laying my S4 track, guess what will hold the ballast in place? As mentioned it does have lots of other uses as well.
Philip

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:47 am
by Le Corbusier
SteamAle wrote:I have a large O gauge layout that had granite ballast held in place with shellac and when I decided I needed to lift all the track because the baseboards were too heavy for me to lift as I got older, .........The new layout uses 5" thick foam baseboards at 4' x 2' each, so much lighter.
When I get round to finally laying my S4 track, guess what will hold the ballast in place? As mentioned it does have lots of other uses as well.
Philip

I have used Shellac for French Polishing :? My observation is that even the lightest (blonde) mix still results in a golden coating :? ..... how does this impact upon ballast? My preferred method to date has been the Dave Franks method using a dropper and dilute PVA mix with detergent to break surface tension.

Re: None specific model products

Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:29 am
by dal-t
Returning briefly to Jim's original theme for this thread, I have two contributions. The first - and my favourite - is the use of supermarker 'press and dispense' correction pens (liquid 'snopake' to those of us who pre-date digital printing) for filling seams in plastic kits. If you have a less than perfect joint, you can either smother it with proper modelling filler (which when sanded back inevitably leaves at least a couple of holes) or you can run one of these along it first, allowing the fluid to seep well into the joint. When set, often that is enough, but it won't sand to a feather edge, so sometimes you do need to finish off with Green Stuff (other fillers are available). But because the snopake provides a base within the joint, less sanding filler will be required and holes are unlikely. I buy the pens at about 2 euros for a set of three, though they're probably a bit cheaper at the moment with the 'rentree' (back to school). If there is anyone else here interested in military aircraft modelling, you can also use the pens (with care) to represent the white explosive cord built into some cockpit canopies.

My second suggestion is the use of 'matchpot' paints from the DIY shed for backscenes and built structures. My approach to such things has always been dab a bit, cover a bit, fudge it again, and these little pots have given me decent results at affordable prices for sky, clouds, concrete walls and painted woodwork. For anyone interested in things that float, some of the shades have also been recommended as providing a better match than known modelling paints for HMS Victory at the time of Trafalgar (further details might be available for a small fee ...).