Mashima motors and the future

Products you use that you would like to recommend.
User avatar
Mike Garwood
Posts: 618
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:51 pm

Mashima motors and the future

Postby Mike Garwood » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:23 pm

I'm a little surprised that nothing has been mentioned of the demise of Mashima motors - in the near future - what are the alternatives? I've seen mention of the Mitsumi motors, but they only come in 2 sizes. Should I be concerned or are there other plans I don't know about?

regards

Mike

User avatar
Knuckles
Posts: 1262
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Knuckles » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:10 pm

Mashima motors no more? Seriously hope not or its panic buying for me. :shock:
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.com/
Mostly 3D Printed Loco kits etc.

SCC Price list (7/4/22)
https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.co ... e77d42.pdf

User avatar
steamraiser
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:49 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby steamraiser » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:13 pm

There is a couple of threads on RM Web.

It appears some people are doing some research on the internet for alternatives.

Gordon A

User avatar
John Bateson
Posts: 807
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:39 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby John Bateson » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:30 am

The last time Mashima was closing down I saw these
http://www.nwsl.com/uploads/chap2_web_09-15.pdf
They are of a similar price to Mashima

John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

User avatar
Mike Garwood
Posts: 618
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:51 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Mike Garwood » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:23 pm

Thanks John,

Lots of options in that catalogue. I hope I can get them to fit into Mr Gibbon's gearboxes. I wonder what the likes of DJH, Branchlines and indeed, Mr Gibbon are planning to do...

This may be a chance to use cardan shafts as a standard build and put the motor in the tender. Not to everyone's taste, but a thought.

Mike

Edited to add line

Philip Hall
Posts: 1943
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:49 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:55 pm

I spoke to Chris Gibbon at Expo EM and he told me he was doing some research into alternatives. It may be that not all the sizes required will come from the same source.

It doesn't come as much of a surprise as Mr Mashima is getting on now, and he had to pack it in eventually, but I also
think panic buying will do us all no favours. Let's wait and see what Chris comes up with. He has more than a passing interest in the problem, after all.

Philip

User avatar
Knuckles
Posts: 1262
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Knuckles » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:15 pm

Panic buying sounds good to me though. You'll have a future stock for a good while meaning less stress for yourself and they will probably eventually go on ebay the way of Portescap. £££

By panic buying I don't mean going OTT to the selfish state of owning 100 or something silly.


EDIT: Mr Bateson's presented PDF is awesome. Loving it already, ta mooowch.
Last edited by Knuckles on Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.com/
Mostly 3D Printed Loco kits etc.

SCC Price list (7/4/22)
https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.co ... e77d42.pdf

User avatar
David B
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 5:30 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby David B » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:24 pm

Talking with a few people in the trade today, I gather the manufacturer of the magnets for Mashima motors has stopped. As far as Mashima motors are concerned, the importer is confident that there will be motors available in to next year in most sizes. So, panic buying is not necessary - yet.

In the meantime, research to find alternatives I hear is going well so the future is not particularly gloomy.

dal-t
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:06 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby dal-t » Fri Jun 10, 2016 6:27 pm

Aren't NWSL's motors actually Sagami? Didn"t we all go off those some years ago for some reason (I have a hazy memory of some very improbably looking torque curves and incredibly high rev rates, but then most of my memories are a bit hazy these days - and I haven't even started tonight's vin rouge yet ...)?
David L-T

David Catton
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:23 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby David Catton » Sat Jun 11, 2016 7:57 am

Could always take a punt on these motors - http://www.cctrans.org.uk/

HTH,

DC

PS Apologies for missing the AGM (again!) but we're off to Canada on Tuesday for 3 weeks.
Last edited by grovenor-2685 on Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: url fixed.

User avatar
Knuckles
Posts: 1262
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Knuckles » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:08 am

What is it people do not like with high rev' motors?

I find with a suitable ratio reduction and a flywheel they are better. Smoother and less likely to stall, even at slower speeds.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.com/
Mostly 3D Printed Loco kits etc.

SCC Price list (7/4/22)
https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.co ... e77d42.pdf

Maitland
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 10:16 am

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Maitland » Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:32 pm

And I'd just done all the conversions to turn the EM Society's measurements (from the Finney & Smith website) to Kt and Kv values! And I also see that F&S has disappeared too... truly, we live in the latter days.

dal-t
Posts: 654
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:06 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby dal-t » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:08 pm

Knuckles wrote:What is it people do not like with high rev' motors?

I find with a suitable ratio reduction and a flywheel they are better. Smoother and less likely to stall, even at slower speeds.


Just a few guesses - greater mechanical losses from the additional gearing? Less suited than slower-revving to absorb the stresses (particularly imbalances) of flywheels? Not stalling at slower speeds, but at higher? - not sure if they then burn out quicker, or not, though, I've never been able to get the stop-watch out before the smoke has started to rise ...
David L-T

User avatar
Knuckles
Posts: 1262
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Knuckles » Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:13 pm

Oky doky.

Guess this is another example of different people having different experiences with the same factors resulting in opposite views.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.com/
Mostly 3D Printed Loco kits etc.

SCC Price list (7/4/22)
https://www.sparkshotcustomcreations.co ... e77d42.pdf

User avatar
Jol Wilkinson
Posts: 1111
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:39 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:27 pm

I believe Mashima motors were increasingly developed to suit model railway applications i.e. a suitable speed/power curve, power output, dimensions, etc. while still at reasonable cost.

There are plenty of other low voltage d.c. motors available but these have usually been produced for other applications and vary widely in performance characteristics, dimensions and cost. Motors intended for short operating periods at fixed speeds may not always provide what we want.

I recently obtained some samples of the motors from Cambridge Custom Transfers. These are nicely made 3 pole motors but do not seem quite as "nice" as Mashimas. Without installing and testing one over a period of time and in "real" conditions I can't say how they would compare. One obvious drawback is the mounting screw holes are at 30 degree to the vertical and so don't fit any of the current designs of motor mounts.

Edward45
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Edward45 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:38 pm

What appears to be the type of motor installed in the Hornby J15 can be obtained at very reasonable prices.

David Thorpe

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby David Thorpe » Mon Jun 27, 2016 1:48 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:One obvious drawback is the mounting screw holes are at 30 degree to the vertical and so don't fit any of the current designs of motor mounts.


They're made by Mitsumi, they fit High Level gearboxes, and they're £7 each inc p&p.

DT
Last edited by David Thorpe on Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Edward45
Posts: 46
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:53 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Edward45 » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:44 pm

And at the reasonable price of £1.99 for five!

User avatar
Julian Roberts
Posts: 1388
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:33 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Julian Roberts » Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:40 am

dal-t wrote:
Knuckles wrote:What is it people do not like with high rev' motors?

I find with a suitable ratio reduction and a flywheel they are better. Smoother and less likely to stall, even at slower speeds.


Just a few guesses - greater mechanical losses from the additional gearing? Less suited than slower-revving to absorb the stresses (particularly imbalances) of flywheels? Not stalling at slower speeds, but at higher? - not sure if they then burn out quicker, or not, though, I've never been able to get the stop-watch out before the smoke has started to rise ...


Knuckles wrote:Oky doky.

Guess this is another example of different people having different experiences with the same factors resulting in opposite views.


I''m with Knuckles on this. I don't get this about mechanical losses, for all the times I've seen it written. Isn't this the same thing as die hard old school cyclists saying that a single speed bike is the only way to do it? Not much use if you're going touring anywhere mountainous or the steep banks in Devon and Cornwall. Give me a nice big reduction ratio, less than 1 to 1, and I can twiddle my way up any hill at 3mph. So what if it's mechanically less efficient? Then change gear and swoop down the other side at 35mph. The low gearing and wide ratio range of mountain bikes is part of what has made cycling so much more accessible over the last few decades IMHO.

I've got 80:1 and 108:1 gearing on all my locos, and flywheels, with motors of various sizes, though none smaller than 1420 so far. (Perhaps you are talking about smaller ones than this?) They are geared for a scale maximum 30mph at 12V as that is the maximum realistic speed on the layout. Much more controllability at low speed. Stalling? Stresses? Burn out? Smoke? Not in my experience. Chris Gibbon's range of gearboxes with 108:1 gearing has IMHO brought a similar wider accessibility to the possibility of decent slow running, and I think it's a shame that this adverse reaction of "mechanical losses" seems to be so widely held. So what if it's mechanically inefficient? High reduction gearing works fine well and allows model trains to move like real ones at the lower speeds. I haven't seen a layout yet at an exhibition where higher speeds than 30mph looked realistic, as they are either end to end station terminal types, or where circular the curvature would not allow higher speeds.

Referring to the specifications of the Mitsui http://www.mitsumi.co.jp/latest/Catalog ... ies_e.html I will now show my lack of mechanical understanding that experts may consider all too evident from what I have just written.

The voltage range says 6V ~ 28V. Does that mean it is designed for a higher voltage than Mashima motors? And would the "no load speed" of 8750rpm be appropriate to feed into the HI Level website Speed calculator as the motor speed? This would (notwithstanding what I just wrote above) require a lower ratio gearing than with the motors I have used so far.

Alan Turner
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:24 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Alan Turner » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:37 am

The motor actually has an 8v rating. This is what it should be run at.

regards

Alan

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Forum Team
Posts: 3917
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:08 pm

Alan Turner wrote:The motor actually has an 8v rating. This is what it should be run at.
regards Alan

However, we don't run our loco motors at a constant voltage, I would take it that the no-load rpm given is for 8V, hence likely to be quite a bit higher at 12V. Using that 'no-load' speed to calculate your gear ratio should result in a slower speed at 8V as it will be slower under load but may be ample at 12V.
There should be no problem running the motor up to 12V since it is specified as OK up to 28V.
In reality a voltage limit on a motor is only relevant for the winding and commutator insulation. The more important limits on operation for our use are the thermal limits and the heat comes from the power input less the mechanical power output. Unless the thermal characteristics of the motor are known all you can do is be pragmatic and check that it is not overheating in your application.
Regards
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 2516
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Will L » Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:01 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:I''m with Knuckles on this.

And I'm with Julian. While there is clearly no harm in fitting the largest motor you can get in, I really doubt if has any greater justification than pleasing its maker.

A loco can only usefully use as much power as it can transmit through driving wheels to rail. You should always ensure that if you loco meets a immovable object it will spin its wheels. if you don't and it can't then you have a motor burner on your hands what ever sort of motor you fitted. In fact when testing a loco, it is always advisable to run it against a stop with its wheels slipping and see how hot the motor gets. If it remains cool enough to handle you should be onto a winner.

IMHO the most common reason for an overcooked motor is resistance within the chassis drive chain. A stiff chassis can absorb significantly more power than you can usefully transmit through the wheels and there is no useful "safety valve" like wheel slip when a loco is trying to pull too much. Fitting a bigger motor may help overcome stiffness, but fixing the chassis so it isn't stiff will give better results.

I find that Highlevel gearboxes (whatever the ratio) are very free running and certainly don't add significantly to the load on the motor. My preferred motor is a Mashima 1024, this is exactly a small and relatively fast revving motor and I've used it in a variety of loco because it is quite powerful enough and it is relatively easy to find the necessary space. In everyday use I get smooth consistent performance, I don't burn out motors, nor am I troubled by wheels going out of quarter, which again I suspect is related to "powering through" stiff spots in the motion.

How much will much will a loco fitted with such a motor pull? Well I've been over this before see,
- the section headed A Haulage Challenge on this CAG meeting repor
- and this posting on the Onward from Ambergate thread

User avatar
LesGros
Posts: 546
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 10:05 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby LesGros » Sat Sep 11, 2021 12:30 pm

To resurrect this old topic:

:?: What does the latest wisdom have to say about the selection of motors for use in 4mm scale locomotive kits? :?:
LesG

The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful

User avatar
steamraiser
Posts: 557
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 4:49 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby steamraiser » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:26 pm

Have a look at High Level Kits web site for an alternative range of motors:
https://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/motors

Gordon A

User avatar
Mike Garwood
Posts: 618
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2008 4:51 pm

Re: Mashima motors and the future

Postby Mike Garwood » Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:09 pm

I must have been living under a rock, High level back in full gear. But the cost of the motors has increased substantially! Trip down memeory lane - my first Portescap 1624 was cheaper.

Has anyone had the oppourtunity to try any of these, I don't suppose Chris would supply these unless he had done his due diligence. But always worth gathering first hand knowledge.

Mike


Return to “Recommendations”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ClaudeBot and 0 guests