Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

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Enigma
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Enigma » Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:10 pm

Stephan.wintner wrote:I'm interested.

Side note, I saw an article somewhere. The author made a form tool by turning a disk, then cutting a notch in (with suitable rake). My point is, that tool was able to be resharpened many times. Not sure of the design being contemplated, and I'll buy it either way, just offering a comment from the peanut gallery.

Cheers
Stephan

Somewhere I've got a tool like that made by a friend who is currently a society member. I've never used it as I never fully worked out how to mount it. Trouble is I'm not sure where it is these days!

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iak
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby iak » Thu Oct 01, 2020 10:12 pm

Now that is a positive... :thumb
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David Knight
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby David Knight » Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:16 pm

One please.

Cheers,

David

Clive Impey
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Clive Impey » Fri Oct 02, 2020 6:17 am

Yes two for me please Terry..

Clive.
Last edited by Clive Impey on Sat Oct 03, 2020 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ralphrobertson
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby ralphrobertson » Fri Oct 02, 2020 8:16 am

Sid Stubbs techniques on wheel turning can be found here:

http://www.mmrs.co.uk/technical-articles/making-wheels/

Ralph

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David Thorpe
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby David Thorpe » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:21 am

I have to confess to having no idea what a "form tool" is. I assume that I am correct, however, in assuming that in order to use it one requires a lathe?

DT

RedDragon
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby RedDragon » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:40 pm

I would also like one of these form tools as well if I could Terry

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:20 pm

David Thorpe wrote:I have to confess to having no idea what a "form tool" is. I assume that I am correct, however, in assuming that in order to use it one requires a lathe?

DT


Yes.
Moreover it needs to be a pretty powerful one, used with lubricant, as the load will be much higher than with normal tools

Terry Bendall
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:53 pm

Thanks for the positive response. Reference has been made to the process devised by the late Sid Stubbs and the web site as given by Ralph will give the full details. I wrote about this method and re-profiling wheels back in 2010 in Scalefour News 166 and 167 and for those who do not have paper copies they can be found in the member's section of the web site.

It is correct that lighter lathes may struggle to cope with the job and mounting the wheels so they run "true" without any wobble needs to be sorted out but the basics of what you need to know are given in the articles on the use of machine tools that I wrote back in 2009-10. There are many reference books on the use of the lathe and some of these were listed in part one of the series. When we have the tools available instructions on their use will be published.

Terry Bendall

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steve howe
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby steve howe » Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:03 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
Stephan.wintner wrote:I'm interested.

Side note, I saw an article somewhere. The author made a form tool by turning a disk, then cutting a notch in (with suitable rake). My point is, that tool was able to be resharpened many times. Not sure of the design being contemplated, and I'll buy it either way, just offering a comment from the peanut gallery.

Cheers
Stephan

That article was from Sid Stubbe/MMRS, 1960s IIRC. Could be a reference on the MMRS website.


I found a tool which matches this description among my old chum Pat English's lathe gear. I've never had the courage to use it, but I would be interested in a tool if it became available, but would endorse the comment that a training course (or perhaps online video) would be most useful for those of us who are 'self-taught' lathe owners!

Steve

decauville1126
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby decauville1126 » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:10 pm

Another yes here! Again a 6mm square shank would be preferred.

philip-griffiths
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby philip-griffiths » Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:44 am

Yes please.

Winander
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Winander » Sat Oct 03, 2020 8:39 pm

Hello Terry,

I too would be interested.

thanks for taking this intiative.
Richard Hodgson

Alan Turner
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Alan Turner » Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:38 pm

Yes put me down for one.

regards

Alan

triumph3
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby triumph3 » Thu Oct 08, 2020 12:34 pm

Put me down for one as well.

David Clarke

Tony Wilkins
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Tony Wilkins » Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:15 am

Another yes please here too. I have reprofiled flanges by eye in the past with some success, well they stayed on the track, but a proper form tool would remove the guesswork.

Regards
Tony W.
Inspiration from the past. Dreams for the future.

Philip Hall
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:22 pm

Proto87Stores has posted in the Guest Book (presumably as a non member he can’t post here?) about an alternative design of form tool that would be more suitable for those of us with more delicate lathes. Like me, I’m quite content with my Unimat SL and can’t see me changing anytime soon.

The alternative he describes does appeal in some ways, so could something like this be considered please? I have reprofiled wheels by eye for a while now, often not bothering with the coning, just for fun (?) But a better way of ensuring the proper profile would be good, so any kind of form tool would be useful.

Can I also throw in a note of caution for those thinking of machining Alan Gibson or similar wheels where the tyres are just pressed on. They will probably shift if the wheel is only held by the centre, and I can’t see any easy way of holding them by the tyre whilst that is machined, since access to all sides of the tyre would be required. I think the only way would be to remove the tyre, then solder or glue it to a smaller thick brass disc which could then be held in a ring chuck.

Sharman EM wheels could be machined as the centre is locked on to the tyre, by skimming off the back of the tyre and then using the form tool to tickle up the flange etc. I wouldn’t touch Ultrascale for fear of altering an already superb product.

Am I thinking this out too much or are there simpler solutions, bearing in mind that the most important thing is that the wheels will end up perfectly round and wobble free?

Philip

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Horsetan
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Horsetan » Sat Oct 10, 2020 1:25 pm

Philip Hall wrote:Proto87Stores has posted in the Guest Book (presumably as a non member he can’t post here?) about an alternative design of form tool that would be more suitable for those of us with more delicate lathes. Like me, I’m quite content with my Unimat SL and can’t see me changing anytime soon.

The alternative he describes does appeal in some ways, so could something like this be considered please? I have reprofiled wheels by eye for a while now, often not bothering with the coning, just for fun (?) But a better way of ensuring the proper profile would be good, so any kind of form tool would be useful....


I did manage to buy a Teichmann tool some years ago:
Attachments
hopur_tool.jpg
That would be an ecumenical matter.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:36 pm

Philip,
If cutting the tread by running a tool along it then you are limited to turning the headstock to create a taper. But that is not the case with a form tool as you feed it in directly with the cross slide so can angle the tool post to cut the taper. But maybe not with the Teichmann tool that does not seem to be a form tool in the usual meaning.
Regards
Keith
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Terry Bendall
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:32 am

Those who have been involved in the planning of the production of a form tool are well aware of the limitations both of sharpening the tool and its use on the smaller lathes. Some of these limitations were outlined in my first post and will be expanded on when we have a production run when detailed instructions on its use and potential limitations will be provided through the pages of Scalefour News.

The aim was to produce a tool that could be used to re-profile RTR OO wheels, not to re-profile Gibson ones where presumably a person would buy P4 wheels anyway. (assuming that they are available) Those who might want to re-profile EM wheels might find it easier to buy new ones to P4 standards. If tools of a different design are available from other sources then there is no need to the Society to produce something similar.

Terry Bendall

nberrington
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby nberrington » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:20 am

This is a smashing idea....

Philip Hall
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Philip Hall » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:17 pm

Thank you Terry. I expected that this would be well thought out, and I’m sure it will be very useful in whatever form it takes. My only request is that hopefully it will fit my Unimat SL, which I think means a 6mm square shank. Crossed fingers!

Philip

ken kirk
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby ken kirk » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:12 am

Yes please Terry.
I've re-profiled some of my EM wheels making my own ring chucks to hold 'em, but a final tidy up would ensure consistency.
Howard Bolton gave me one to evaluate last year but as I was busy track making, it went on the back burner.
An EMAG member now wishes to borrow it, so I'll let him evaluate it.

Alan Turner
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Alan Turner » Tue Oct 13, 2020 12:07 pm

The Scale 7 Group produce two Form tools for use with S7.

The circular type is easier to sharpen.


23-HSS wheel profile form tool.JPG


23 wheel profile form tool.JPG


Which type is planned for the P4 tool?

regards

Alan

Terry Bendall
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Re: Who would want a form tool for re-profiling wheels?

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue Oct 13, 2020 4:33 pm

Philip Hall wrote:My only request is that hopefully it will fit my Unimat SL, which I think means a 6mm square shank.


It will be a 6mm square tool.

Alan Turner wrote:Which type is planned for the P4 tool?


It will be the simple square type.

Terry Bendall


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