SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

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Knuckles
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SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:51 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GueZnmgf410

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc

New launch range of kits and bits!

The video shows some 00 engines built, painted and running proving they can be made functional. They are in the cheapest material though so for best finish the finer stuff is recommended, details in the vid.

I've kept this quiet for many reasons in case you are wondering. 8-)



NOTE: Specifically to those versed in P4 and S4:

I have some P4 chassis for everything but they are not public and they won't be unless I'm happy they will be able to conform to S4/P4 standards. As a member of the Scalefour Society I refuse to release them unless I'm confidant I'm happy they will not give us/me a bad name, so for that reason I'd like in the near future to consult them with you. I made the chassis mainly for myself so in that regard it matters not but for mainstream release it does matter.
This doesn't mean I lack confidence, rather I have a high respect for the society and it's reputation.



The main concern is that they are fixed axle, but we can talk later.

Please have a look at the vid and the shop and see what you think. :thumb
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

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Ian Everett
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Ian Everett » Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:51 pm

I am astonished that no-one has responded to this posting before me. Unless I have been burying my head in the sand it seems to be one of the most exciting developments in loco kIts for years. Not only has Knuckles produced three finescale one piece loco bodies (and one freelance) but also beautifully detailed one-piece chassis (just requiring wheels, motors and gear boxes - suspensions to follow).

Are these the first 3D printed loco chassis?

Knuckles, you should be re-named "Dark Horse"!

Ian

Knuckles
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:19 pm

Hehe, thanks.

I have P4 chassis available but haven't made them viewable to the public yet as I want to consult them with you guys first.

There are a number of freelance designs in the website, more than the vid. The vid shows the bulk idea though.

Why do you think I've been so quiet these past 10 or so months!? :D
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

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Ian Everett
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Ian Everett » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:33 pm

I suggest you contact James Dickie of the Scalefour North team and get a pitch there to discuss your ideas.

Ian

P.S. It's amusing to compare your struggles to reshape the E2 tanks on the whitemetal kit with the 3D equivalent. You've come a long way!

Knuckles
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:39 pm

:D

Aye. I keep surprising you.

The white metal E2 turned into Thunderbird 1! I still laugh at that.

No offense intended by it though.


The P4 chassis at the moment are mostly done, 16mm frame width and all that. But as they are fixed axle I feel strongly they may be considered a bad idea.

Before I made the fixed axle's I made a working bodge of CBS by printing the carriers in position and even making my own hornbocks. I got the system to work but there was too much friction with both material types and after filing to make them slide easier there was too much lateral twist so I put the idea on the back burner for the time being.

If not fixed then printing the rectangular holes cut out for brass hornblocks to be fastly glued in I'm sure will be the way to go. Printing spring carriers in position is a doddle but they have to be in the right place which is where the difficulty can come in. Individual leaf springs may be better than CBS for prints but as I said I'll get this discussed in time and get 'em sorted.

The fixed ones do have a hole and groves in to make cutting them out but I haven't tried this yet.


P.S - Who's James and what is his expertise?

I'm willing to talk to anyone.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

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John Donnelly
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby John Donnelly » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:57 pm

Knuckles wrote:P.S - Who's James and what is his expertise?

I'm willing to talk to anyone.


James is the organiser of Scalefour North.

John

Knuckles
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:59 pm

Ok cool. Thanks.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

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iak
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby iak » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:26 am

Fascinating stuff mon.
That Fowler tender looks tasty as do the L&Y beasties.
I shall watch with interest as this is another new technology that is developing all the time.

Sláinte
Iain :thumb
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David Thorpe
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby David Thorpe » Fri Dec 18, 2015 11:56 am

It's a pretty good example, isn't it, of someone who can't find something he wants that's readily available and, instead of just moaning about it, goes out and actually does something about it. Hats off to you, Knuckles, even although there's nothing in the range that I actually want. Now if you were to turn out a nice CR Pickersgill 4-4-0 (no kit or RTR currently available) that might be different....... :D

DT

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CDGFife
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby CDGFife » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:23 pm

Knuckles well done!

These are looking great as is the webshop. There's obviously a load of work & thought gone into it!

Look forward to seeing you progress it.

Cheers

Chris

MikeH
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby MikeH » Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:34 pm

Very Impressive Knuckles! Although I still have no idea where to start even with one of those I can see you really have put alot of time into developing a number of very interesting products and I hope it goes well for you

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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:37 pm

Ian Everett wrote:I am astonished that no-one has responded to this posting before me. Unless I have been burying my head in the sand it seems to be one of the most exciting developments in loco kIts for years. Not only has Knuckles produced three finescale one piece loco bodies (and one freelance) but also beautifully detailed one-piece chassis (just requiring wheels, motors and gear boxes - suspensions to follow).

Are these the first 3D printed loco chassis?

Knuckles, you should be re-named "Dark Horse"!

Ian




iak wrote:Fascinating stuff mon.
That Fowler tender looks tasty as do the L&Y beasties.
I shall watch with interest as this is another new technology that is developing all the time.

Sláinte
Iain :thumb



David Thorpe wrote:It's a pretty good example, isn't it, of someone who can't find something he wants that's readily available and, instead of just moaning about it, goes out and actually does something about it. Hats off to you, Knuckles, even although there's nothing in the range that I actually want. Now if you were to turn out a nice CR Pickersgill 4-4-0 (no kit or RTR currently available) that might be different....... :D

DT


I'll need to do some more research and mulling to decide the next projects but I'm open to suggestions that can be mulled over. My intension is to in the long run keep this going so hopefully it'll start well.


CDGFife wrote:Knuckles well done!

These are looking great as is the webshop. There's obviously a load of work & thought gone into it!

Look forward to seeing you progress it.

Cheers

Chris




MikeH wrote:Very Impressive Knuckles! Although I still have no idea where to start even with one of those I can see you really have put alot of time into developing a number of very interesting products and I hope it goes well for you



To be honest I didn't think there would be any interest in the Fowler tender as there are brass kits about. I made it for speed of construction later on.

Also a surprise to me is/was the interest in the printed P4 chassis because I thought the mainstream view is etched construction or nothing. Maybe it still is for the most part.

Part of an RMweb comment...

It's good to see chassis being 3D printed as well, which aids split chassis construction.


That didn't even come to mind, but yeah I guess so. It's insulated isn't it? :)

---

Just so people know. If there is demand then I can release the P4 Fixed chassis, although I'd label them as Beta (working models). They are pretty much the same as the 00 ones only pulled out equally to give the 16mm frame width and the brake gear tweaked to fit the P4 wheels. The rigging you could always dump in favour of .45mm brass/nickel silver rods etc.

Good idea or not? The P4 loco chassis I'm happy to release in FUD as the frames at the back are thick enough but the 00 ones are currently only in the other material due to thickness differencies.

---

I've made the chassis so they can easily have horn block areas cut out as the chassis have rectangular holes at the top of the axle holes and 'etched' groves as a guide should ou wish to mod one.

I could print chassis like this direct though.

The other idea is to provide leaf spring carriers already in position.

I did do this in the early days with some success but the printed hornblocks had too much friction and after smoothing too much twist so mainstream brass hornblocks are a must for springing I reckon. Once cracked I can do it for 00 and EM too.

Any correspondance and ideas on the chassis issue I very much want to get nipped asap, so talking to you S4/P4 lads and getting a collective is a good idea in my mind. Again, my only issue with the P4 chassis I currently have completed are the fact they are fixed axle, like the 00 ones.

Many many thanks for the comments. :thumb

-

EDIT: I keep forgetting to plaster this about too...

21st - $10 of FUD orders over $30.

23rd - $25 of all orders over $100.

25th - 25% off WSF.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

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iak
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby iak » Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:12 pm

Methinks that to experiment and explore are the watchwords here?
Enough of us have rewheeled Hornby and Bachmann beasties so surely these fixed chassis are worth a punt?
Like all new technologies, this type of printing can only go forwards so......

And if you want a suggestion, what about a C14 :mrgreen:
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it....

Perfection is impossible.
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Knuckles
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:40 pm

I could release them fixed as I say and I might do, then maybe do a revised set later as well. I'm interested in a collective opinion here from P4 modellers.

I've received quite a few loco' suggestions the past day so I have a lot to think about. :shock:

Enough of us have rewheeled Hornby and Bachmann beasties so surely these fixed chassis are worth a punt?


I hope so, Bachy and Horny aren't usually true fixed axles.


The printed coupling rods are designed as fixed and if the loco has compensation or springing then either a set of articulated ones (I made them in the early days but they have to be a wee thicker than etched ones) or at the very least the modeller may want to enlarge the centre hole a wee to allow the springing. Basically a bit of slop like some RTR engines do. I perceive reaming in too much slop might be considered a sloppy method though, pun intended and unintended all in unison.

Edit: Quick note about my E2 chassis; the wheelbase and rods are the correct wheelbase. The etched chassis and the Hornby chassis are not, that's got to be a plus point. :thumb
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

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Guy Rixon
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:42 pm

Congrats on getting the range launched. I hope you get some sales - this deserves some money. Any chance of something SECR-ish sometime?

Concerning the chassis, you might like to consider a scheme that used to be sold for 2FS, I think by Mike Bryant, some years back. This was moulded spacers to go with brass side-frames to make split-framed chassis. The spacers had pegs moulded on, and the idea was that one drilled the frames to take the pegs, then glued them to the spacers, retaining with nuts screwed onto the pegs; when the glue was set, the nuts were removed and the pegs trimmed off. The spacers included some that provided motor mounts. A scheme like this would make a self-aligning chassis-system that goes together square without the need for expensive jigs. The builder would have to sort the hornblocks but if you were doing spacers for specific engines - or complete block chassis for specific types - then you could build in the CSB mounts.

nberrington
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby nberrington » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:48 pm

So you've already done the smaller one - how about a Brighton E4 chassis for the new Bachmann model?

Knuckles
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:33 am

Guy Rixon wrote:Congrats on getting the range launched. I hope you get some sales - this deserves some money. Any chance of something SECR-ish sometime?

Concerning the chassis, you might like to consider a scheme that used to be sold for 2FS, I think by Mike Bryant, some years back. This was moulded spacers to go with brass side-frames to make split-framed chassis. The spacers had pegs moulded on, and the idea was that one drilled the frames to take the pegs, then glued them to the spacers, retaining with nuts screwed onto the pegs; when the glue was set, the nuts were removed and the pegs trimmed off. The spacers included some that provided motor mounts. A scheme like this would make a self-aligning chassis-system that goes together square without the need for expensive jigs. The builder would have to sort the hornblocks but if you were doing spacers for specific engines - or complete block chassis for specific types - then you could build in the CSB mounts.


Ok I see what you mean. I had to read that a couple of times before I could visualise it hence my delay in responce but I hear you. I think though to be honest it kind of negates the point of a 3D printed chassis. With these chassis you pretty much have them all square and almost ready to use, but I can see the merit in keeping the brass sides due to its material qualities. It's not an area I wish to yet venture though.

With springing etc most proprietry hornblocks have the horn carriers with them and so if they are glued in the spaces properly I think this will work out.

I might just release the P4 chassis as fixed after all, make an obvious note in the instructions at the top and then work on the sprung versions after. Good or bad idea? I'm just after a collective really for this one.

By SECR if you mean the Indian railway then sadly not. I'm inculturated and bias to British outline I'm afraid! If you mean another railway company please enlighten me, I did a websearch and only found the Indian one.

nberrington wrote:So you've already done the smaller one - how about a Brighton E4 chassis for the new Bachmann model?


'Smaller one,' I'm guessing you mean the E2. The Bachmann E4 is a nice model. If I was to do anything for it I'd have to buy the model itself to accurately take measurments for fitting, currently I'm low on funds and about to loose my job (temp contract) so not yet.

Do you mean like the chassis I have already done so you can bung your own motor in etc or do you mean thickening strips to bring the frames out to 16mm?

EDIT: I'm thinking but currently unsure, but as a hopefully easier project doing a kit of the Bagnall 0-4-0ST. Basically Alfred & Judy. If anyone could point me to a scale drawing I'd be a happy chappy. ;) If not no worries.
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John Donnelly
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby John Donnelly » Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:31 am

Knuckles wrote:By SECR if you mean the Indian railway then sadly not. I'm inculturated and bias to British outline I'm afraid! If you mean another railway company please enlighten me, I did a websearch and only found the Indian one.


He means the South Eastern and Chatham Railway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Eas ... am_Railway

John

Knuckles
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:02 pm

Ooh, yes of course. Dumbo me. :shock: :? :cry:

Too early to say, but what I can say is the C class done in the full blown complex green livery is a favourite of mine. Seen it and chased it on holiday once and that was fun.

I did want to nab one of Bachmann's examples but they seemed to disappear as quick as they were released, same as Hornby's then new HST's.
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http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
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Alan Turner
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Alan Turner » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:37 pm

Knuckles wrote:
EDIT: I'm thinking but currently unsure, but as a hopefully easier project doing a kit of the Bagnall 0-4-0ST. Basically Alfred & Judy. If anyone could point me to a scale drawing I'd be a happy chappy. ;) If not no worries.


Have a look here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/foxfield/bagnall_no2.htm

regards

Alan

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Ian Everett
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Ian Everett » Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:51 pm

Knuckles wrote:I might just release the P4 chassis as fixed after all, make an obvious note in the instructions at the top and then work on the sprung versions after. Good or bad idea? I'm just after a collective really for this one.


I have some solid rtr chassis and they run remarkably well. I'm sure this is down to their basic accuracy and the amount of vertical slop built into them. I think the main virtue of compensation or springing is that they take up any slight inaccuracies in the sorts of scratch built or rtr chassis that most of us build. Your designs will be much more accurate.

Having said that it is undeniable that sprung chassis are intrinsically better - such locos ride more smoothly, pick up current better and wheels stay cleaner. So, how about building on Brassmaster's simple system (as initially devised by John Brighton? Allow some slight vertical (but not horizontal) slop in the axleboxes, by making them oval, then fit a small helical spring in a pocket above the axle to take the weight. I'm sure some rtr chassis use this system.

Ian

Philip Hall
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Philip Hall » Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:59 pm

Ian Everett wrote
So, how about building on Brassmaster's simple system (as initially devised by John Brighton? Allow some slight vertical (but not horizontal) slop in the axleboxes, by making them oval, then fit a small helical spring in a pocket above the axle to take the weight. I'm sure some rtr chassis use this system.


I'm not aware of any RTR chassis that are quite like this, but one or two do have springing on a centre axle, just to push the wheelset down in a dip. I would be very uneasy about actually suspending a wheelset on a centrally positioned spring as I think it might be unstable. Brassmasters' system of proper sprung hornblocks on a brass frame outside the RTR one is proven.

However, I have my doubts that this would be worthwhile on something like the E4, for example. I have yet to take the one I have here apart (it's going to be EM) but the running is wonderful as it comes out of the box, and with round wheels I see no reason to make work unless you wish to refine the appearance of the underpinnings. And that, to be honest, will be a lot of work for not a lot of return. This E4 and the recent Hornby S15 run superbly, better than anything I've ever seen in RTR and probably better than most people can achieve, so I doubt the wisdom of replacement unless that is what you really wish to do. I must emphasise (apologies if I've said this before) that wheels on these rigid chassis must be absolutely concentric, a few thou out will not do. Not just because they will run better, but to avoid the phenomenon of an engine that glides along perfectly steadily in 00 but limps and wobbles in EM and P4. Believe me I've seen a few, including some of my own, which is why I am getting increasingly fussy!

Knuckles, if you did decide to come up with a cosmetic frame, with the brakes in the right place for P4, sandboxes etc, which would just wrap around a P4 chassis block that would be very nice. Sometimes, though, there is so much stuff between and in front of the wheels that you can't really see the frames, so I would only contemplate doing something on an engine that has masses of space between the wheels. And also a strip of styrene spaced out from the frames is quite easy to do. I would also say that most of these RTR chassis run like they do (and in their converted form) because they are dead true and have a bit of play in the bearings. Building a dead true chassis, even something printed into which bearings are inserted, will not be easy, I think, and also it will not be simple to build in the extra clearance in the bearings. Without this slight play P4 flanges will have a hard time staying on the deck.

Good luck with your endeavours, it all looks very good!

Philip

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Ian Everett
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Ian Everett » Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:07 pm

Philip Hall wrote:I'm not aware of any RTR chassis that are quite like this, but one or two do have springing on a centre axle, just to push the wheelset down in a dip. I would be very uneasy about actually suspending a wheelset on a centrally positioned spring as I think it might be unstable. Brassmasters' system of proper sprung hornblocks on a brass frame outside the RTR one is proven.



Philip, reading my earlier post I can see why you wrote that sentence above, and I agree that a centrally positioned spring would not do - sorry to not make myself clear. I was actually thinking of two springs per axle, one above each hornblock, as Brassmasters (and Comet) use, but placing them inside pockets rather than outside "prongs". I think that would be stable and simple to achieve with Knuckle's design.

Ian

David Knight
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby David Knight » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:08 pm

Knuckles,

After looking at the website and seeing the video it strikes me that your primary target audience should be the pre-grouping societies. This could be a symbiotic relationship with them providing the data for locomotive types and you doing the rest, assuming they can supply the required demand. You have probably got the attention of the L&Y and FR groups and I'm sure there are others who would come on board if they were aware of what you require in order to commission a model. It might be worth mentioning this information both here and in the other place, but in the interim, well done, you! :thumb :thumb

Cheers,

David

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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:21 pm

Alan Turner wrote:
Have a look here: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/foxfield/bagnall_no2.htm

regards

Alan


Many thanks, it's the wrong one but I appreciate you looking. :thumb

I really appreciate you all taking the time to reply on these things, I have taken a while to reply to these last few as I have been mulling a lot over everything everyone has said. For springing I'm still thinking of cutting out the dummy horn-blocks as a printed design and simply bunging in some real ones, but how they would actually be sprung and what clearances / heights for possible carriers etc are another matter I haven't worked out.

Also based on what a few of you have said I did have the idea that the axle hole could be reamed out downwards as one of you said - that in itself could be fine for a simple fixed chassis bodge but if the top of the axles holes had a hole drilled through them in effect being the 'pockets' spoken about and a working buffer spring housed inside and capped at the top, would it be ok on top of a loose bush bearing (that may spin occasionally I'd think)? I'd imagine it'd be bodge engineering but as it would only protrude downwards a maximum of 1mm I doubt it'd snag or cut the bush to bits.
I'm thinking of trying this, if it works it'd be an odd idea I guess.

Also to Ian, Philip and David, I haven't quoted things as it is summed up generally in the above paragraphs but again many thanks for the advice and encouragements.

Just a note about the SCC shop after listening to some suggestions.

Fixed P4 chassis have been added for sale (16mm frame width - if you would suggest less I could sort that out too) and the whole shop is now categorized making it easier to find things. ;)

I will be at some point doing EM chassis too but I need to know the back to back wheel settings and the frame widths before I do that. The wheels are important for brake pads. I've found the BtB settings but finding the chassis width is harder than I expected. I'm guessing 15mm's might be good? There doesn't seem to be an official EMG standard for this.


EDIT:

David Knight wrote:Knuckles,

After looking at the website and seeing the video it strikes me that your primary target audience should be the pre-grouping societies. This could be a symbiotic relationship with them providing the data for locomotive types and you doing the rest, assuming they can supply the required demand. You have probably got the attention of the L&Y and FR groups and I'm sure there are others who would come on board if they were aware of what you require in order to commission a model. It might be worth mentioning this information both here and in the other place, but in the interim, well done, you! :thumb :thumb

Cheers,

David


Thankyou for the two thumbs :D
I'm a fan of pre grouping. These initial items are what I wanted for myself and I know a few others did too but for the future I think I want to keep things rounded, pander to several interests and flavours. Truth is though the earlier stuff that is less modelled is where I mainly want to attack.

How would I go about doing as you suggest? I very much like the idea of doing something for a railway society (Scalefour Society? :idea: ) as it'd no doubt have more coverage that way.
Last edited by Knuckles on Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
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