SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

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Knuckles
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:13 pm

Not the best picture as white is the very devil to get a good shot of but it's a LSWR Coach Side printed at 50 microns as a test for someone.

Based on this at least I'd think the whole thing would turn out nice.

Image
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kelly
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby kelly » Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:00 pm

Knuckles wrote:Not the best picture as white is the very devil to get a good shot of but it's a LSWR Coach Side printed at 50 microns as a test for someone.

Based on this at least I'd think the whole thing would turn out nice.

Image


That looks pretty nice.
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Knuckles
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:58 pm

“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

Alan Woodard
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Alan Woodard » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:04 pm

Hi knuckles.

it looks good but would it be better without the door handles ? Then people could put there own choice on and it would save trying to carving them off neatly..

Cheers.

Alan.

Knuckles
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:12 pm

Thanks, Alan.

It might be better without those details but Linny designed it. I just printed it. :)

EDIT: Just editing to add a thought based on what Bill said below, at least with my own designs I like to put most details on, even if in some areas they are a little thick due to tolerances or whatever. At least if it is there some will be happy with it and if not, out comes the blade, but if not there to begin with then people have to faff adding extra bits whether they want to or not. A lot would rather bits be there than not as default.

Comes to opinion I guess. Not everyone models every detail 100% perfect or even aspires to. As I always say, can't please everyone!
Last edited by Knuckles on Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

billbedford
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby billbedford » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:38 pm

Alan Woodard wrote:Hi knuckles.

it looks good but would it be better without the door handles ? Then people could put there own choice on and it would save trying to carving them off neatly..


You mean; you think manufacturers should supply coaches without door handles so customers will have to supply their own?
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Alan Woodard
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Alan Woodard » Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:37 am

Hi Bill.

I mean the molded/ printed ones. They are a nuisance to chiv off without taking a chunk of beading off with it.

Al.

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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby billbedford » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:05 am

Yes, I know you were talking about the moulded handles, but what do you want instead of them? Are you really expecting everyone who buys a kit to have to buy the door separately?

It seems to me that you want to replace a reasonably scale representation of the handles with something that is likely to always be over-scale. And I wonder just what proportion of potential customers would want to do that.
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jasp
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby jasp » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:09 am

Because of the material between the “wings” of the door handle and body I would not be happy with the appearance - many others could well be content.
On the subject of what is in a kit etc, etched kits come with separate door handles which are not usually overscale so why not printed vehicles? After all, such will require a number of other components, for example grab handles, to complete so why not door handles?
We are, however, dealing with a theoretical situation here as these are produced for the designer who is, presumably, happy with this.
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billbedford
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby billbedford » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:59 am

jasp wrote:On the subject of what is in a kit etc, etched kits come with separate door handles which are not usually overscale so why not printed vehicles? After all, such will require a number of other components, for example grab handles, to complete so why not door handles?


Because the whole point of printed kits is to simplify the construction by reducing the component count. This makes such kits accessible to a much larger number of potential customers.
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Horsetan
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Horsetan » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:00 pm

billbedford wrote:
jasp wrote:On the subject of what is in a kit etc, etched kits come with separate door handles which are not usually overscale so why not printed vehicles? After all, such will require a number of other components, for example grab handles, to complete so why not door handles?


Because the whole point of printed kits is to simplify the construction by reducing the component count. This makes such kits accessible to a much larger number of potential customers.


Very reminiscent of how RTR used to be, with much of the detail moulded......and which people then had to remove in order to substitute aftermarket parts?
That would be an ecumenical matter.

Alan Woodard
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Alan Woodard » Thu Mar 14, 2019 7:35 pm

Personally I'd much rather buy door handles that look like door handles than a blob of plastic that looks like a blob of plastic. I use the turned brass type which put in a chuck and filed down looks more realistic,and you only need to drill a hole and glue/solder it in. after all, we are trying to get as close to scale as we can aren't we?

Alan.

Knuckles
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:15 pm

Not everyone, no.

Personally I rivet count details (have to when designing) but for what I physically model on the desk I'm selective with what I want to be exacting. I have no interest in 'Getting it all right' as I'd never achieve my goals because they are significantly bigger than a small or medium layout that is perfect to every detail, so I fall in the modified 'Getting it alright' bracket whilst getting certain things perfect. Those things which I try to model on the desk perfectly are very selective compared to other items that are more impressionistic.

Again, if I tried to make everything perfect I wouldn't have a chance achieving the things I want to.

The usual model railway compromises must be chosen and we all choose differently.

For me, on the P4 side of things I care about correct wheels and track gauge but that's literally it. I'm more a standard rather than finescale modeller who wants the fundimentals correct but will go the extra mile on what appeals. A wonky sleeper or wrong chair here or there doesn't bother me, but the gauge and flange gaps do.

On the 3D side of thing every detail and rivet that can be drawn and printed acording to tolerances is done so because you can always remove/replace those details that you want to improve, but if they are not there to begin with then you have to add them and not everyone wants to do so or can be bothered. We live in a generation of instant gratification and impatience and although I agree those are bad traits, that's the reality of things for many of us - me being partially one of them. Life is short.
On my desk modelling do I want to spend 20 years modelling everything? Nope. I don't enjoy it that much, I enjoy certain modelling aspects but not all and I enjoy results but with the long term projects I'm working on and being a 1 man band in all of it you can forget getting every detail separately fitted.

2 foot rule for me on most things.

Everyone is different here. I speak for myself but there are many others who align with what I have said, mayby not as many P4 modellers but certainly some and when it comes to 3D printing, like Bill said, the idea is to speed things up.

If you want to add separate brass handles to everything then stick to etched kits......or get the blade and chistles out and start bastardizing. :thumb

As a baby clarification, I personally love to see exacting modelling where every chair, key, bolt, signalbox lever and every bit of point rodding is exact and I do support that ethos, but for my own layouts and stock it isn't realistic when I have soooooooo much to build; so I'm selective with where the extra effort goes.

Neither modelling view is right or wrong, just different based on preferance, application and goals.
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Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

CornCrake
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby CornCrake » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:22 am

Having got the CAD design with handles, would it not be a simple matter to then produce a version without handles?

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David Thorpe
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby David Thorpe » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:09 am

Good post, Knuckles. I have to say that it largely sums up my own modelling philosophy as well.

DT

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:17 am

I don't like the effort involved in removing moulded details to replace them with more realistic items. That's why I have only one Ratio LNWR carriage in my stock. Painting and lining complex liveries with handles already fitted makes life more difficult too, for me at least. Brass paint doesn't look much like real brass either.

I prefer separate door and commode handles. So a kit with holesfor these (or markers showing where to drill) would be my choice. Commode handles can be made from wire, not too difficult if a folding jig is part of the kit. Door handles are easily made from brass lace pins with a file.

If 3D printing is the answer to a maiden's prayer that some believe it is, then why not print the handles for subsequent fitting?

This is reminiscent of the early days of etched kits where some designers tried to etch nearly everything. If you are designing kits it is important to recognise that multi material or composite kits attract the more experienced modeller, while "simple" kits aimed at beginners may not do so if there is too much work needed to uplift them and alternatives are available.

essdee
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby essdee » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:06 pm

I'm firmly with Gavin - a well-thought and presented viewpoint. And, at rising-65 here, ever more relevant. The two/three-foot viewing rule is a very sensible guide for the layout builder, as opposed to the 'showcase fiend' (which is me, too, on a bad day).

I am also with the late Peter Denny, who made such a fine job of leaving off the lettering on his GCR carriages (no transfers), that 'Modeller' Editor C.J.Freezer, on leaving an operating session, was moved to ask PD how he had had done 'that lettering'. I have somewhere, a thought-provoking book called 'Tree and Leaf, by Niggle'; you get the picture...

My SDJR carriage stock may well look like Ratio GWR and MR sides, with amended waist panelling - but within a recreated Wellow Valley landscape, behind a scratchbuilt blue 4-4-0, they will at least be finished and in action, rather than perfect and in a storage box!

Leaving off handles certainly eases the task for the 'super-detailer' - remember that term of yore? But will deter the newcomer/less experienced/more time-pressed. I suspect the latter category represents a bigger market?

Gavin has now (dammit) placed the temptation of some lovely FR models, as a sideline, within my reach in terms of timescale required. In this latest development, I would agree with Gavin and Bill - yes please, gents, with moulded handles.

Steve

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LesGros
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby LesGros » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:42 pm

An interesting debate; with much to agree with on both sides.

Better modellers than I, have written; that in a display layout it is more important to be consistent in the degree of scale veracity across the layout, than having a perfect Fine scale loco sitting in a medium scale landscape. Such inconsistency jars, to the detriment of the intended illusion.

Knuckles has a bespoke-ish market niche, with the equipment, skill, and ability to meet his customers' level of requirements; including decisions about practical levels of detail.

Thank you for sharing Knuckles. :thumb
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billbedford
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby billbedford » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:47 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:I prefer separate door and commode handles. So a kit with holes for these (or markers showing where to drill) would be my choice. Commode handles can be made from wire, not too difficult if a folding jig is part of the kit. Door handles are easily made from brass lace pins with a file.


Now here's an interesting thought, making and fitting the door handles is going to take longer than assembling the rest of the coach...

If 3D printing is the answer to a maiden's prayer that some believe it is, then why not print the handles for subsequent fitting?


You can't do that. It's to do with the resolution of printers and the fragility of thin sections of resins. The recommended minimum sheet thickness for my printer is 0.4mm, which is about double what is needed for stand-alone door handles.

This is reminiscent of the early days of etched kits where some designers tried to etch nearly everything. If you are designing kits it is important to recognise that multi-material or composite kits attract the more experienced modeller, while "simple" kits aimed at beginners may not do so if there is too much work needed to uplift them and alternatives are available.


Maybe, but trial and error is what makes a designer. It is more important to know what you definitely can't do than what you obviously can.

Oh, and the market is not for 'simple kits for beginners' it is really for sophisticated kits for people who have realised that life to too short to get their magnum opus layout finished with the standard 1000 piece three-dimensional jigsaw puzzles that pass for 'state of the art' kits.
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Knuckles
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Knuckles » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:49 pm

David Thorpe wrote:Good post, Knuckles. I have to say that it largely sums up my own modelling philosophy as well.

DT


Ta Moowch. ;)

Jol Wilkinson wrote:I don't like the effort involved in removing moulded details to replace them with more realistic items. That's why I have only one Ratio LNWR carriage in my stock. Painting and lining complex liveries with handles already fitted makes life more difficult too, for me at least. Brass paint doesn't look much like real brass either. I prefer separate door and commode handles. So a kit with holesfor these (or markers showing where to drill) would be my choice. Commode handles can be made from wire, not too difficult if a folding jig is part of the kit. Door handles are easily made from brass lace pins with a file.


If I one day design coaches a quick email for example could get the handles pulled off the CAD and holes designed in. Is a very simple fix in this example.

If 3D printing is the answer to a maiden's prayer that some believe it is, then why not print the handles for subsequent fitting?


I’ll let Bill answer that as he indeed has…

billbedford wrote:You can't do that. It's to do with the resolution of printers and the fragility of thin sections of resins. The recommended minimum sheet thickness for my printer is 0.4mm, which is about double what is needed for stand-alone door handles.


I mean, you could do it if you were lucky, but it’d be like giving a bear a few eggs and telling it to climb a tree without breaking them.

This is reminiscent of the early days of etched kits where some designers tried to etch nearly everything. If you are designing kits it is important to recognise that multi material or composite kits attract the more experienced modeller, while "simple" kits aimed at beginners may not do so if there is too much work needed to uplift them and alternatives are available.


I’d agree multi media is good but it depends what is being designed, it also depends on a designer’s skill set. I for example have 3D design and printing but haven’t yet figured a way I can draw suitable 2D files for etching….as backwards as that sounds. Most of my own stuff is designed more for beginners because, lets be honest, most things are too daunting for a lot of n00bs and a lot of them are scared of soldering or just don’t want to….or haven’t got the time and want something quicker, or……yeah, can’t please everyone. But what is 3D printed can be re-modelled or re-detailed to look more how you would want anyway.

essdee wrote:I'm firmly with Gavin - a well-thought and presented viewpoint. And, at rising-65 here, ever more relevant. The two/three-foot viewing rule is a very sensible guide for the layout builder, as opposed to the 'showcase fiend' (which is me, too, on a bad day).
---snipped content---

Leaving off handles certainly eases the task for the 'super-detailer' - remember that term of yore? But will deter the newcomer/less experienced/more time-pressed. I suspect the latter category represents a bigger market?

Gavin has now (dammit) placed the temptation of some lovely FR models, as a sideline, within my reach in terms of timescale required. In this latest development, I would agree with Gavin and Bill - yes please, gents, with moulded handles.

Steve


Thanks, not much else to add but I agree.

LesGros wrote:An interesting debate; with much to agree with on both sides.

Better modellers than I, have written; that in a display layout it is more important to be consistent in the degree of scale veracity across the layout, than having a perfect Fine scale loco sitting in a medium scale landscape. Such inconsistency jars, to the detriment of the intended illusion.

Knuckles has a bespoke-ish market niche, with the equipment, skill, and ability to meet his customers' level of requirements; including decisions about practical levels of detail.

Thank you for sharing Knuckles. :thumb


No probs, and thanks for the thumbs up. I’d agree about consistent standard of finish, but side tracking a wee the biggest visual jar for me is the out of control plague of sodding Metcalf kits on 75% of non finescale layouts out there….baaah! Kill ‘em! Fed up of seeing ‘Metcalfeville’ everywhere. Can sniff them out 4 layouts away at a show, too damn obvious. Sorry if that erks someone but someone’s gotta say it.

billbedford wrote: Oh, and the market is not for 'simple kits for beginners' it is really for sophisticated kits for people who have realized that life to too short to get their magnum opus layout finished with the standard 1000 piece three-dimensional jigsaw puzzles that pass for 'state of the art' kits.


I agree largely here too although it is important to realize there are different markets, wants and needs out there. There is nothing wrong with kits that have loads of pieces as in some ways for some kits it may be necessary or the best option and there are those who prefer to build these type of kits as they are found to be more fun for them or provide more build options.
For me though, minimum amount of parts is the best as long as the result is good, plus I don’t enjoy every build. With railway modelling there are so many different disciplines and it’s mad to think everyone enjoys all aspects of them, good for those rare few though. Anyway, time is ticking, I have a LOT to build, no 1000 piece puzzles for me, I'm with Bill here...

8-)
“He who dares not offend cannot be honest.” Thomas Paine

http://www.shapeways.com/shops/sparksho ... eationsscc
Mostly offering Loco kits & bits in 4mm.
SCC Photon Resin Prints Price list
download/file.php?id=19320

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Guy Rixon
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby Guy Rixon » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:41 am

What are the options for 3rd-party door furniture these days? I seem to remember etched T-handles and loop-handles being available back in the '90s. Personally, I would have no problem gluing in etched door-handles, but filing up a train's worth of handles from pin heads would be a bit daunting.

I note that Etched Pixels sell 1:148 kits with etched sides and a printed armature. That would be attractive to me in 4mm scale if the price was not too high. Even after 35 years of soldering coach kits, the prospect of building up a brass monocoque with un-jigged butt-joints is off-putting. If the armature included glazing pockets and attachment points for the roof, then it would be a big win.

John Palmer
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby John Palmer » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:15 am

Guy Rixon wrote:What are the options for 3rd-party door furniture these days? I seem to remember etched T-handles and loop-handles being available back in the '90s.

https://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/63/4mm-scale-etched-accessories-by-roxey-mouldings/. For a South of England prototype, all the variety you might wish.

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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby John Palmer » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:20 am

Knuckles wrote:2 foot rule for me on most things.

And me. If only I could exercise the self-discipline to stick to it. Good post.

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jon price
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby jon price » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:48 am

Guy Rixon wrote:I note that Etched Pixels sell 1:148 kits with etched sides and a printed armature. That would be attractive to me in 4mm scale if the price was not too high. Even after 35 years of soldering coach kits, the prospect of building up a brass monocoque with un-jigged butt-joints is off-putting. If the armature included glazing pockets and attachment points for the roof, then it would be a big win.


I'm aware of some examples (current and historic) of etched sides designed to go on RTR models of similar length or body style prototypes, and I would think an armature and etch route would be extremely sensible and cost effective. The body armatures in stock sizes, and to a lesser extent the end etches, would be used for large numbers of different coaches, and the sides for particular coaches would need much smaller runs. London Road LNWR 50ft non-corridors go some way down this route with the use of Ratio floors and bogies, but anything to make that soldered joint between ends and sides less difficult would be useful.

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David Thorpe
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Re: SCC - Sparkshot Custom Creations

Postby David Thorpe » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:07 pm

Guy Rixon wrote:What are the options for 3rd-party door furniture these days? I seem to remember etched T-handles and loop-handles being available back in the '90s.


Markits do some very nice turned brass door handles in 4mm scale. Unfortunately, at fractionally under 50p each, they're quite pricey.

DT


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