Stopping at an Inner Home signal

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Winander
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Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Winander » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:33 pm

In the Railex Virtual exhibition was a video of Eccleston, Martin Nield's L&Y P4 layout. In the opening sequence a goods train is accepted by the signalman, but stopped at the inner home signal. Once satisfied that the train was under the control of the crew, it was allowed to proceed. A later passenger train was allowed through without this check, the difference being it was continuously braked (the goods being unfitted).

Was this practice common for all companies, when was it introduced, how long did it last, did it only apply to termini etc. etc? In other words can someone please shed more light on it.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:20 pm

Most likely rule 39A was in operation.
ie for the goods the starter was at stop, for the passenger clear.
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bécasse
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby bécasse » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:01 pm

Rule 39A would have required the goods to be brought almost to a stand at both outer and inner homes if the section ahead wasn't clear - indeed it would also have applied to a passenger train in the same circumstances.

It is possible that there was a local instruction (many signal boxes had specific local instructions - most of which have been lost) that required loose-coupled trains to be brought to a stand at the inner home, or there might even have been a STOP BOARD there requiring loose-coupled trains to stop to pin down sufficient brakes prior to descending a significant grade (although, for very good reason, stop boards were often sited away from fixed signals).

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Tim V
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Tim V » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:26 pm

Did the train 'stop' or 'nearly stop'? Did the loco crew call attention by blowing their whistle?
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:40 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Most likely rule 39A was in operation.
ie for the goods the starter was at stop, for the passenger clear.

Now I've looked at the video, firstly the station is a terminus, hence no starter, hence rule 39A is not strictly applicable, the signal concerned is described as home, not inner home and there is no suggestion there is any other home signal, the layout does not need one.
So bringing a loose coupled goods to or almost to a stand would certainly be good practice, where the instruction or rule might be found on the L&Y in 1910 I don't know.

Why is it called a 'through goods', no way to go through a terminus?
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Alan Turner
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Alan Turner » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:57 pm

Winander wrote:In the Railex Virtual exhibition was a video of Eccleston, Martin Nield's L&Y P4 layout. In the opening sequence a goods train is accepted by the signalman, but stopped at the inner home signal. Once satisfied that the train was under the control of the crew, it was allowed to proceed. A later passenger train was allowed through without this check, the difference being it was continuously braked (the goods being unfitted).

Was this practice common for all companies, when was it introduced, how long did it last, did it only apply to termini etc. etc? In other words can someone please shed more light on it.

thanks


It is a practise that is in use today at Bridgnorth on the SVR. Rule 39A does not apply to passenger trains of class A or B so signals are pulled off when Train on line is received. However for goods, Light Engine etc the signals are not pulled off except in the face of the train.

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Winander
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Winander » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:01 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:the signal concerned is described as home, not inner home and there is no suggestion there is any other home signal


In the video, when the goods train stops it is described as a home, when the passenger train proceeds through it is described as an inner home. The link below should take you to the passenger train segment.

https://youtu.be/LGSYleowsq0?list=TLGGowsEU9uiucUzMTA1MjAyMQ&t=569
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 10:29 pm

Winander wrote:In the video, when the goods train stops it is described as a home, when the passenger train proceeds through it is described as an inner home. The link below should take you to the passenger train segment.

A bit of mis-captioning then. There is only the one home on the layout, and it was the goods train you referenced. :)
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby John Palmer » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:06 am

I note that the captions referred to the 'blocking back inside home signal' bell code being sent to the next block post. This was in connection with workings from an off-scene gasworks, and included a wrong road movement by the gasworks shunter that went beyond the home signal visible on the layout. That leads me to wonder whether an outer home should be assumed to exist off-scene, for otherwise gasworks trips will involve blocking back outside the solitary home signal.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Martin Nield » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:14 am

Firstly, thank you to everyone who has contributed to this interesting discussion. I am pleased that the video of my layout has provoked such interest. Eccleston is a terminus so I have always presumed (and I know you should never presume, but always ascertain) that loose-coupled goods trains would have to be brought to a stand so the signalman could be confident the train was under control before he lowered the signal to admit it to the station. I confess this is not based on a specific reading of the L&YR Rule Book, but I have a copy of the 1908 version and will now peruse it to see if I can find such a rule.
The signal featured in the video is the Inner Home as, in my imagination, there are gas works sidings with a trailing connection to the Down line just offstage which would have been protected by an Outer Home.
The term Through Goods is an L&YR classification and referred to a type of train which ran from A to B without stopping to shunt at intermediate stations or yards.
I hope this helps.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby martin goodall » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:42 am

I haven't got my copies of the GWR Rule Book, and the company's Signalling Instructions booklet immediately to hand at the moment, but I vaguely recall that at a single track branch terminus (and possibly also at other block posts on a single line?), the signalman, after accepting a train and releasing the token, was supposed to keep his Home signal at danger until the train was brought to a stand or nearly to a stand at his Home signal. On approaching the Home signal, the driver would sound the whistle, and the signalman, if he was satisfied that the approaching train was sufficiently under control would then lower the signal to admit the train to the station.

[I'm sorry I can't quote chapter and verse at the moment, as I won't be able to look up the rules until later tomorrow at the earliest.]

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Noel » Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:12 am

I've been watching this topic with interest and some confusion. I'm not familiar with the layout, so I've looked at the track plan and video on the Railex site, and the signal diagram in MRJ 83, from which I see that the station has one passenger platform only. My understanding is that, under BoT rules of the time, ending a double line at a single platform was forbidden. In any event, the signalman cannot accept another train if there is one in the platform, unless there is an outer home (which the signal diagram does not show), which will restrict the line's capacity and suggest that a single line would be adequate.

Another issue is the Gasworks further up the line, which is apparently accessed from the Up line with [according to a previous post] inbound traffic working "wrong line". There is no indication of how access to the gasworks is controlled by the station box. It could be by a ground frame, in which case either there should be an advanced starter to keep it within station limits (not present), or the cooperation of the next box will be needed. Either way, how does the signalman control its release for the trip to the station? Something more than just verbal permission would be required, I would think. The logical answer is that there is a 'Gas Works' box controlling access, but in that case there should be a signal on the Up line controlling access to the station, or the traffic between the boxes should not work wrong line. With the single line option, the Up line could be changed into a headshunt with access to the gas works, and the signalling and locking is much simpler.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby JFS » Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:43 am

Noel wrote:My understanding is that, under BoT rules of the time, ending a double line at a single platform was forbidden.


I see you are unfamiliar with the L&Y - which this layout represents.

From my knowledge of that railway, there were very many double lines which ended in a single platform (I could name at least six) whereas I know of only one (Middleton) which had two platforms.

Without wishing to be disrepectful to yourself and perhaps others who have posted, I think your response is rather disrespectful to the builder of layout - whom - I suspect, knows more about the L&Y than many here. It is no good quoting the general position nor that on other railways when the layout is - self-evidently - a model of something else.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Winander » Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:15 pm

Winander wrote:Was this practice common for all companies, when was it introduced, how long did it last, did it only apply to termini etc. etc? In other words can someone please shed more light on it.


My original request was for general information and mention of Martin's layout was merely the context from which the question arose. So perhaps we can kindly forget the specifics of Eccleston?

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby JFS » Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:43 pm

Winander wrote:
My original request was for general information


Indeed so, and I would respond by saying that those general principles which did exist (such as the BoT Requirements or Reg39A as already described) are there to be applied or set side as each and every location requires.

I would illustrate that with a few examples.

On the Southern, Barnham and Ford are adjacent stations, respectively junctions for Bognor and Littlehampton. Both have/had a loop platform with entry and exit at both ends. Rule 39A should be applied for trains entering the loop when the exit signal is at Danger.
However, at Barnham there is an exemption for trains entering the Loop from the Branch line provided they are timetabled to use the loop platform.

Now - as far as I am aware- there was no such exemption at Ford.

Why should that be? Well, Barnham was a busy location and 90% of the trains using the loop were /are Bognor shuttles. It would be clearly unreasonable to impose Rule 39A under those circumstanced when the drivers are doing the job 20 times per shift and the signalman has more important tasks.

The signal concerned at Ford was passed at Danger in 1951 leading to the deaths of 8 passengers. However, the circumstances were not related to this discussion except that the train HAD been checked at the previous signal as required by 39A.

If you want to have a look at the specifics, I had written simulations of the boxes at both locations and you can download them here:-

https://blockpostsoftware.co.uk/downloads.php

The question at a terminus is complicated by how the buffer stop is treated. In more recent times it has become the trend to treat the stops as a fixed stop signal and to provide a fixed distant and - sometimes - apply 39A in their rear. However, in earlier times that was not the case and - as an example - at Leeds City Wellington, the Midland Railway provided worked Distant Signals. Moreover, there were three of these in succession which were under-bolted so that, unless the Home signal permitting entry to the platform was clear, none of the Distants could be cleared. There might be some logical reasoning behind that approach, but I cannot fathom it. Nor could I say if that was the Midland's general practice elsewhere. But we know for certain, that is how it was.

I would add one further observation. One ot the busiest railway systems in the world was/is the Southern Suburban network. Furthermore, in mechanical signalling days it was much more complex than today's toy train set. It moved millions of passengers every day and, occasional disasters notwithstanding, it did so pretty safely. Yet, virtually no location on the entire system complied with the BoT requirement for 440yards clearing point / overlap - because it was impossible! I recall visiting Borough Market Junction SB in the rush hour as a 15 year old with two mates (yes, BR did that kind of thing!) and I recall two trains approaching the same diamond crossing from opposite directions, just yards apart. Sure enough, one of them stopped at the signal, only about 20 yards away from the diamond...

Rules and regs still bedevil today's railway but it is much less creative about how to circumvent them. When the Manchester South Re-signalling Project got as far as Stockport, it was discovered that current Rules, Regs and Requirements did not permit the layout required to provide the service. The only solution was to abandon the resignalling and to overhaul the existing LNWR mechanical boxes for further use - they remain in use to this day!

So much for the BoT!

Given all that, and the examples quoted by Alan and others above, my advice would be to understand the basic principles, then put them aside and draw up a set of Local Instructions for your signal box based on what is reasonably practicticable. Then (the difficult bit) ensure that all your operators follow it. That way, if some know-all comes along to tell you that you are "doing it wrong because the BoT said ..." you can wave your Local Instructions (Footnotes in GW-Speak) and tell him what he can do with them ...

I think that is precisely what Martin did at Eccleston ...
Best Wishes,


Hope that helps.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Noel » Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:16 pm

JFS wrote: It is no good quoting the general position nor that on other railways when the layout is - self-evidently - a model of something else.


I was asking here if I was right in my understanding of the BoT requirements for the termination of double lines, as I have no means of checking this. Most of my other questions or comments relate to the absolute block rules, and protection of running lines. There were always exceptions, but they were always for very specific reasons, as with Borough Market.

I would be interested in knowing where the six or so examples you quote are, please, as I would like to find out more about them and why they occurred.
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Noel

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Martin Nield » Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:22 pm

Examples include Horwich and Royton in Lancashire and Rishworth and Holmfirth in Yorkshire, all on the L&YR.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby JFS » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:39 pm

Noel wrote:I would be interested in knowing where the six or so examples you quote are, please, as I would like to find out more about them and why they occurred.


The additions I had to Martin's list were Stainland and Stalybridge.

As to why they were built that way, it is mostly because they were primarily freight lines - I do not have my reference just to hand but I seem to remember that Royton had siding accomodation for around 500 wagons. It certainly had a five-storey cotton warehouse.

EDIT:- just found my source: Royton Goods Yard capacity was 376 wagons and the Coal Yard capacity was 264. As at Eccleston, these two yards were on opposite sides of the passenger platform. Not bad for a 2 mile long branch!

Best Wishes,
Last edited by JFS on Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:41 pm

And Glossop on the GC.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby bécasse » Sat Jun 05, 2021 6:49 pm

Noel wrote:I was asking here if I was right in my understanding of the BoT requirements for the termination of double lines, as I have no means of checking this.


The last sentence in rule 11, but only introduced in 1902 - "at terminal stations a double line of railway must not end as a single line"

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:57 pm

No mention of platforms in that sentence but the platform comes in an earlier sentence in requirement 11 which says that on double lines each line must have its own platform.
Interestingly by 1928 the wording is slightly modified as
at terminal stations a double line of railway must not, as a rule, end as a single line

And remained the same in the 1950 edition.
The three extra words presumably added to allow for exceptions.

Its hard to see any logic in demanding a second platform at termini that would only ever have one passenger train present.
There is no mention of requiring arrivals to be able to use the second line anyway so its hard to see what useful purpose it could serve.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby JFS » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:34 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:There is no mention of requiring arrivals to be able to use the second line anyway so its hard to see what useful purpose it could serve.


Indeed, and interestingly, at Middleton - the one L&Y example which did have two platforms - one was exclusively used for arrivals and the other for departures. So right up to the bitter end, the solitary 2-car DMU had to swap platforms between arriving and departing as that is all the signalling permitted. Therefore - as you say - it is hard to see how the two platforms would help the matter in hand.

I am not sure about all of the other L&Y stations, but Middleton, at least, did have an Outer Home. It lived in my Uncle's back garden after the branch closed and is now in store on the East Lancs Railway!
I would venture to suggest that all of the others had one also - I will try to check.

Given the vagueness of the BoT Requirement, I wonder what it would have said about Eccleston? From one viewpoint the layout could be described as ending in a single line. From another there are (about) 7 buffer stops at the far end!

Best Wishes,

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby pete_mcfarlane » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:47 pm

To prove that anything was possible, there's Sandgate at the end of SER's branch from Sandling and Hythe. This had the regulation platform on each line (plus a centre road) all of which converged into a single headshunt with a engine shed at the end of it (which had to be partially entered by locos using the headshunt). All trains used the up platform, and the the down side platform seems to have been semi-disused and only handled goods.

http://disused-stations.org.uk/s/sandgate/index.shtml

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Neil Smith » Sun Jun 06, 2021 8:14 am

Without wanting to reopen sores on this, but wouldn't any BOT regulation about double track lines ending in single platforms have only applied to new builds?

A general principle on the railway was that such things were not backdated, for example the various RCH standards for wagons, and if there was a requirement that everything much change, such as the introduction of the continuous brake or the cessation of the use of dumb/dead buffered wagons, then these were set with time limits (and which limits were then generally considerably extended). For anything else, "grandfather rights" existed.

I don't have sight of this BOT reg and being interested in a different pre-grouping line that laid single-track branches, I hadn't heard of it before, so I am curious?

All the best

Neil

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby JFS » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:24 am

Neil Smith wrote:Without wanting to reopen sores on this, but wouldn't any BOT regulation about double track lines ending in single platforms have only applied to new builds?
Neil


Indeed and one wonders why it was introduced - perhaps there was a bad experience somewhere?

Best Wishes,


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