Stopping at an Inner Home signal

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:33 am

There was no mention of this requirement in the first BOT requirements in 1858 but by 1902 it was included so somewhere in the intervening 44 years someone thought it a good idea. I've no idea if there are any records anywhere showing the development of the requirements over that period.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby bécasse » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:56 am

It was a new requirement in 1902. I rather presume that there must have been some sort of incident concerning a train held outside a terminus awaiting the clearance of the platform road - perhaps passengers jumping down from a train so held.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:07 am

bécasse wrote:It was a new requirement in 1902.

Indeed looking more closely at my 1892/1902 document the last sentence covering not ending in a single line was added in 1902.

I rather presume that there must have been some sort of incident concerning a train held outside a terminus awaiting the clearance of the platform road - perhaps passengers jumping down from a train so held.

But the requirement would not really prevent such an event. I would think that very few such branches were built after 1902 anyway so it would have had little practical effect, but must have been enough to require the further amendment in 1928.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby bécasse » Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:38 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:But the requirement would not really prevent such an event. I would think that very few such branches were built after 1902 anyway so it would have had little practical effect, but must have been enough to require the further amendment in 1928.


I agree, Keith, but the BoT rarely added requirements just for the apparent sake of it, particularly bizarre ones like this, and incidents usually provided the necessary trigger. (Note, for example, how the Armagh accident of June 1889 triggered a new, and quite complex, Regulation of Railways Act, which was drafted and put through all the required Parliamentary stages in just 2½ months to come into force on 1st September of that year.)

The only other possibility that comes to mind, given that the rail-motor revolution was just starting, was that the BoT foresaw that that would lead to a crop of cheap conversions of freight (or, rather, mineral) lines, some of which were double track, to passenger working, and for some reason, not now apparent, wished to ensure that their new terminals had two platforms. (These terminal passenger platforms were often to be short of the actual branch terminal so it may be that the intention was to ensure that platforms were installed on both tracks even if only one was usually used for turn backs.)

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby John Palmer » Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:16 pm

Regarding the 1902 modification of BoT requirements, the report on the 14th February 1900 accident at Dublin's Harcourt Street station may be worth taking into account (available at https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/BoT_DublinHarcourtStreet1900.pdf). There is a possibility - I put it no higher - that undesirable features of the Harcourt Street terminus' layout prompted the modification.

The wording of Rule 39(a) strikes me as something of a triumph of hope over reality, insofar as it permits a signalman to clear a stop signal for a train that he is satisfied has been "brought nearly to a stand", as I can immediately call to mind circumstances preliminary to at least two accidents in which a signalman cleared his home signal in the erroneous belief that an approaching train was responding to its 'stop' aspect. It can be difficult to judge whether a train is slowing or not when it is almost end-on to the observer having to make that call.

I'm also a bit puzzled by a rule requiring a train to be brought (almost) to a stand after its entry into the forward section has been accepted by the block post in advance. Subjecting the driver of a loose coupled train whose vehicles may be strung out over a 'sawtooth' gradient profile to such a signal check at first sight appears to be adding unnecessarily to his workload, so I'd be interested to hear what the rationale for such a rule is.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Martin Nield » Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:21 pm

I don't wish to re-open the debate about my layout but, for information, here is the latest signalling diagram which shows the dispositions of the gas works siding, the home signals and the advanced starter (yes there is one now!).
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby martin goodall » Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:21 pm

Maybe I am missing something, but in my reprint of the 1933 Rule Book, Rule 39(a) would appear to relate to the Outer Home rather than the Inner Home. Unless I have totally misinterpreted the rule, what I understood from this was that if the Inner Home was still at danger (e.g. because a shunting move was still in progress in the station), then the Outer Home had to kept at danger until the approaching train had been brought to a stand or nearly to a stand, which would warn the driver that the line was clear only as far as the Inner Home. As I understand it, the Warning Arrangement worked in the same way.

I have now had the opportunity to consult the Rule Book, GWR GA and GWR Regulations for Train Signalling, and the vague recollection I mentioned yesterday seems to have been wrong. It seems that the Home Signal had to be kept at danger only where a train had been accepted under the Warning Arrangement, or at a passing station on a single line where two trains were approaching from opposite directions. In this case, both Home signals had to be kept at danger until the first train arrived and halted at the Home signal, which could then be lowered to admit that train to the station. The other Home signal had to be kept at danger until the first train had stopped in the station, whereupon the second train could then be admitted to the station. I believe the interlocking would in any event have prevented both Home signals being lowered at the same time. Only one Home signal could be lowered at any one time, and while that signal was lowered the other signal had to remain at danger.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:53 pm

John Palmer wrote:I'm also a bit puzzled by a rule requiring a train to be brought (almost) to a stand after its entry into the forward section has been accepted by the block post in advance. Subjecting the driver of a loose coupled train whose vehicles may be strung out over a 'sawtooth' gradient profile to such a signal check at first sight appears to be adding unnecessarily to his workload, so I'd be interested to hear what the rationale for such a rule is.

I don't think there is any such rule, 39A does not say that, once the train is accepted the signals can all be cleared.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby bécasse » Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:08 pm

martin goodall wrote:Maybe I am missing something, but in my reprint of the 1933 Rule Book, Rule 39(a) would appear to relate to the Outer Home rather than the Inner Home. Unless I have totally misinterpreted the rule, what I understood from this was that if the Inner Home was still at danger (e.g. because a shunting move was still in progress in the station), then the Outer Home had to kept at danger until the approaching train had been brought to a stand or nearly to a stand, which would warn the driver that the line was clear only as far as the Inner Home. As I understand it, the Warning Arrangement worked in the same way.

I have now had the opportunity to consult the Rule Book, GWR GA and GWR Regulations for Train Signalling, and the vague recollection I mentioned yesterday seems to have been wrong. It seems that the Home Signal had to be kept at danger only where a train had been accepted under the Warning Arrangement, or at a passing station on a single line where two trains were approaching from opposite directions. In this case, both Home signals had to be kept at danger until the first train arrived and halted at the Home signal, which could then be lowered to admit that train to the station. The other Home signal had to be kept at danger until the first train had stopped in the station, whereupon the second train could then be admitted to the station. I believe the interlocking would in any event have prevented both Home signals being lowered at the same time. Only one Home signal could be lowered at any one time, and while that signal was lowered the other signal had to remain at danger.


Acceptance under the warning arrangement (which was only permitted at specially authorised locations) implied that the line wasn't clear beyond the home signal ("station or junction blocked"), so, unless the obstruction had been removed during the train's passage of the block section (which often was the case, of course), the home signal had to be maintained at danger because the line was obstructed beyond it. If the line was no longer obstructed, the home signal would be cleared in the normal way.

The modus operandi of a single line passing loop (without traps) isn't quite correct as described because it was the second train to arrive which was admitted into the passing loop first. The single line regulations required the second train to come to a stand before the signal was pulled off to admit it to the loop, but, on the Southern Region at least, the second train as it slowly approached the signal would give a single pop whistle to tell the signalman that the train was fully under control, the signalman would then pull off the signal so that the train didn't actually come to a stand (in a similar manner as required for the operation of Rule 39(a)) but instead gave a second pop whistle and briefly accelerated into the loop. This procedure saved perhaps a whole minute compared with a situation where the train came to a full stand, important when trains were tightly timed. There would have been places and/or occasions where circumstances (ruling gradients, rail conditions, visibility) made this procedure inappropriate and the train would then had have to come to a full stand before the signal was cleared as the regulation actually stated.

Incidentally, if the single line section ahead wasn't actually occupied, there would be no delay to the first train (although the home wouldn't be cleared until the signalman was certain it was under control) and it would be admitted to the passing loop even if it then had to sit and wait for the second train to come through the single line section ahead. With the first train already in the loop, there was no longer any requirement to delay the second train at the approach to the home.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby John Palmer » Sun Jun 06, 2021 10:24 pm

Perhaps it will assist to make available the text of Rule 39:
Rule39.jpg
As you can see, my copy of Rule 39 refers only to stop signals and starting signals, and makes no mention of home signals.

It wasn't my intention to suggest that Rule 39(a) mandated the checking of loose coupled trains. But evidently this is what is done at Bridgnorth. There may be a very good reason for this and I hoped to discover what it was.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Alan Turner » Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:42 am

John Palmer wrote:
It wasn't my intention to suggest that Rule 39(a) mandated the checking of loose coupled trains. But evidently this is what is done at Bridgnorth. There may be a very good reason for this and I hoped to discover what it was.


It's not the checking of Loose coupled trains it's the derogation from r39a that does not apply to such trains and as Bridgnorth is a terminus then there is no clear run into the section in Advance, as there isn't one!

Rule 39a is not about checking trains it's about not lowering signals in advance of the arrival of the train where a clear run through into the section in advance is not signalled. If there is a clear run through into the section in Advance then signals are pulled off before the train arrives.

As regards single line crossing stations I don't recognise the "second" train scenario. Which ever train arrives first will in general be admitted to the station (there are some exceptions to that, which don't detract from the generality). Each train is admitted in turn, as has been pointed out, the Home signals are interlocked. However when the first train to enter is clear inside of the Home signal and admitting point work (i.e. not fouling the exit) then the road can be set for the second train and then that is admitted by pulling off its Home signal. The guard should have given the Signalman a r147 tip by this stage so enabling the first train to be "knocked out" and the second train to be offered on. Hence - First in is Last out. This means that both the Home and Starting/Section signal are cleared at the same time for the train that is second to enter..

As regards the Warning Arrangement (reg 5) - this is only used when authorised for a particular box and the circumstances of use are prescribed by the authorisation. It means that the section is clear only to the Home signal. Hence the engine driver is warned by the signalman that the train has been accepted under the warning. When a train has been accepted normally under reg 4 it means that not only is the line clear to the Home signal but also a distance to the clearing point beyond is also clear - normally 440yds or, in the case of crossing stations the appropriate Starting signal, where that distance is less.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:53 am

Alan Turner wrote:Rule 39a is not about checking trains it's about not lowering signals in advance of the arrival of the train where a clear run through into the section in advance is not signalled. If there is a clear run through into the section in Advance then signals are pulled off before the train arrives.

IMHO Rule 39A is all about checking trains on account of the distance between consecutive stop signals controlled by the one box being less than braking distance.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Alan Turner » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:34 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:
Alan Turner wrote:Rule 39a is not about checking trains it's about not lowering signals in advance of the arrival of the train where a clear run through into the section in advance is not signalled. If there is a clear run through into the section in Advance then signals are pulled off before the train arrives.

IMHO Rule 39A is all about checking trains on account of the distance between consecutive stop signals controlled by the one box being less than braking distance.


OK subtle variations on the same theme but remember the train will have passed a Distant at ON so should be fully expecting to stop at the Home and should therefore be proceeding in an appropriate manner.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:17 pm

But if the train sees the home off as soon as it comes into view he is likely to assume that he has been cleared through and accelerate again then be caught out by the starter being on. This being the scenario that rule 39A is intended to prevent.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Alan Turner » Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:46 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:But if the train sees the home off as soon as it comes into view he is likely to assume that he has been cleared through and accelerate again then be caught out by the starter being on. This being the scenario that rule 39A is intended to prevent.


I trust I didn't imply otherwise as that is exactly why you don't pull off except in the face of the train when the signal in advance is ON.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby martin goodall » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:10 pm

Some interesting points have been clarified in this discussion, but I still don't think we have established why trains are brought to a stand or nearly to a stand at the Inner Home signal at Eccleston.

The only explanation that occurs to me is that this might have been done to ensure that the driver understood that the line was not clear through the section ahead, because at a terminus there is no section ahead, and failure to slow down and stop would result in a rather embarrassing collision with the buffer-stop.

However, as I explained yesterday, I have found no support for this theory in the Rule Book, in the General Appendix or in the Signalling Regulations. There seems to have been nothing official to discourage the signalman at the terminus from lowering his Home signal as soon as he had accepted the train from the box in rear (assuming the train had not been accepted under the Warning Arrangement); so that the driver would see the Home 'off' and continue into the station. All drivers knew the lines over which they worked, and so they could presumably be trusted to slow down and stop at the right place, even without being halted or checked at the Down Home signal. They would in any case have been reminded of the need to stop by seeing the Distant at danger (which, on the approach to a branch terminus would be a Fixed Distant).

So is the practice of keeping the Down Home signal at a terminus at danger until the train has been brought to a stand or nearly to a stand at that signal just a railway modeller's myth? Answers on the back of a £50 note, please.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:43 pm

martin goodall wrote:(which, on the approach to a branch terminus would be a Fixed Distant).

Might be a fixed distant depending on company practice at the time concerned, you can't extrapolate from recent GW practice.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby jon price » Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:06 pm

misread this as "shopping at inner home signal". Fireman popped out to get two fish suppers at the chippy owned by the signalman's sister whilst (strangely fortuitously) held on the inner home.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby martin goodall » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:30 am

jon price wrote:misread this as "shopping at inner home signal". Fireman popped out to get two fish suppers at the chippy owned by the signalman's sister whilst (strangely fortuitously) held on the inner home.


Yes, that’s it! The crew of the evening passenger train had an arrangement with the signalman that he would always stop their train at the Inner Home, whereupon the fireman would leg it to the nearby chippy to collect the pre-ordered fish supper for him and his mate. If anyone in authority saw the fireman leaving the train and queried why he had done so, he would simply say that he had gone to the signal box to comply with Rule 55. As soon as the fireman got back to the engine, the driver would give a short blast on the whistle, whereupon the bobby would lower the Inner Home. The reason why this arrangement worked so well for all concerned is that the loco crew also bought a third fish supper for the bobby, which would be handed over with [but not, one hopes, instead of] the token. Simples!

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Noel » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:08 pm

My thanks to Martin, Howard and Keith. It will be a while before I can look at these station plans.
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Jim Summers » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:07 pm

I can add an example.
The double line to Grangemouth ended in a single platform.
A staff was therefore delivered at Grangemouth No.1 box to a train entering the station and that also unlocked the points at the far end to permit the engine to run round.

It used to get interesting when the inbound engine did not work that set of carriages out, but a new one came on to take them out. I recall a diligent new stationmaster quickly stopping the wicked practice of the second engine being let into the platform line while the inbound engine passed it in the opposite direction on the loop, the staff being handed between the two locomotives, and not via the signalman.

The practice dated from a way back in pre-grouping days, in accordance with the BoT requirements, and continued till the end of passenger service, but to the very end it puzzled a lot of folk.

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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:30 pm

Quite remarkable really, if it had been a single line there wouldn't have been a staff for movements within station limits.
Or can you think of an example for that too?
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Re: Stopping at an Inner Home signal

Postby Noel » Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:14 pm

The main line at Grangemouth continued past the station [into the docks, I think], so did not end at the station, which was on what was legally a very short single line branch, hence the need for a staff for access. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/27808736577/
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