Sound

[zebedeesknees]

Several visitors to the radio control demo at Scaleforum mentioned sound. I had to confess total ignorance of that subject, among others, like controller handover. Now research for future developments has led to a question from me.

I have been guided to the MyLocoSound system, but their website suggests that their sound card is too large for 4mm scale trains, and needs to be mounted under the boards. This could be wired into a DCC installation, but the size would preclude it being fitted to locos, so not triggerable from an onboard radio receiver.

So - what systems do modellers in 4mm scale use?

Ted.

[grovenor-2685]

Mostly DCC. eg. Zimo, ESU, Digitrax, Soundtrax, Hornby.
DCC sound boards are available for N gauge as well.
There are, I believe, some radio controllers available that can interface to a DCC board and hence get sound by that route.

[martin goodall]

I have heard some quite convincing diesel sounds, but steam sounds seem to be much less convincing as yet.

I think this may be due to the absence of an echo (or reverberation), as the sound of the exhaust bounces off surrounding buildings and even off nearby trees and woodland. This was a distinctive feature of the sound made by a steam locomotive.

The other unconvincing aspect of steam sounds in DCC systems is the continuation of the puffing sound of the exhaust until the loco comes to a stand, whereas on the prototype the regulator was closed and the loco drifted to a stand controlled by the steam brake or vacuum brake applied by the driver.

Another distinctive sound made by a Great Western steam loco was the rhythmic 'slap' or 'crack' once in each revolution of the driving wheels made by the crosshead vacuum pump to maintain the higher level of vacuum used by the GWR.

Until these issues can be effectively addressed, I am not attracted to the use of sound on a steam age layout.

[davebradwell]

You're years behind the technology, Martin - DCC sound does coasting and the sound files for GW locos should include the vac pump - if they don't then blame the sound file provider, not the system. Same with the reverb. Our group has been doing sound for a number of years now and the technology is fine but the quality of the recorded sound files is very variable, from terrible up to really quite good. A significant issue is there doesn't seem to be any more good files around now than when we started and you don't know until you've forked out good money what it will be like. We've settled on the Zimo as everything is adjustable so anything that irritates can be turned down or off. This does not appear to be the case with others.

I've always thought that those r/c systems that use a dcc decoder have an advantage in using the motor control, too. At a significant space disadvantage, though.

That's sound as we see it, Ted. Locos are better with than without. Big advances in the hardware but nothing new for a long time in the sound files which can be awful.

DaveB

[petermeyer]

Several visitors to the radio control demo at Scaleforum mentioned sound. I had to confess total ignorance of that subject, among others, like controller handover. Now research for future developments has led to a question from me.

I have been guided to the MyLocoSound system, but their website suggests that their sound card is too large for 4mm scale trains, and needs to be mounted under the boards. This could be wired into a DCC installation, but the size would preclude it being fitted to locos, so not triggerable from an onboard radio receiver.

So - what systems do modellers in 4mm scale use?

Ted.

Just to cover the basics, Ted, if that is what you are asking, the sound system and amplifier is built into the DCC decoder in the ones I have and makes it slightly larger than non-sound decoders. A couple of additional wires protrude for the speaker. The biggest challenge is finding room for the speaker. Running the sound without a speaker attached is likely to blow the amplifier element of the decoder.

I have mainly Zimo sound decoders including tiny ones designed for N gauge. I have also bought a Hornby sound decoder to play with but their sound is very generic. I have no knowledge or experience of a separate "sound card".

[nigelcliffe]

...... DCC decoder ......... Running the sound without a speaker attached is likely to blow the amplifier element of the decoder.

Absence of a speaker will not harm the decoder. The decoder will be driving an "infinite" load, which has no impact, no current flows, no heating, no overload. The harm comes from using a speaker with too low impedance (eg. 4ohm when the decoder amplifier expects 8ohm), or any form of short circuit over the amplifier output, that results in too much current and blown components.


Alternatives for Ted.
There is a small market (mostly German) for add-on decoders for DCC which use the "SUSI" interface on some decoders to connect the movement decoder to a sound decoder. Dietz ( www.d-i-e-t-z.de ) are possibly the main supplier of them. I think the market for these devices is likely to be in near-terminal decline, with the smallest DCC sound decoders being really tiny, eg. Zimo MS500 at 14x10x2.6mm.
In the absence of a SUSI output on the radio movement receiver, this would appear to be a dead-end.

One could just change to "wireless sound" and work out the sound required at the transmitter, then send the sound wirelessly to a speaker. That could be bluetooth or any other common wireless sound transmission. The problem is then sound generation at the transmitter, for which there are numerous options (free and commercial), though none will offer the range of loco sound sets "off-the-shelf" currently available for DCC sound installations.


- Nigel

[martin goodall]

In response to Dave Bradwell, I am pleased to hear this, but I still hear steam sounds on layouts at exhibitions where the limitations I described are still there.

[P.S. Are your wagon springing units still available, Dave? I would like to buy some.]

[davebradwell]

I agree Martin, there's plenty of bad sound about, particularly steam. Coasting should cut in when the speed is reduced by 1 step but many drivers just leave the thing on a fixed speed so there's never a coast. Similarly you get louder chuffs when accelerating. It must be very old tech to chuff to a stop, or yet another poor sound file that hasn't used the facility.

Back to the thread, synchronising the chuffs might be a problem for a composite installation. With closed loop motor control on the same board as the sound they stay in sync pretty well. There's always the option for a sound cam. No problem with diesels, of course.

DaveB

[nigelcliffe]

Back to the thread, synchronising the chuffs might be a problem for a composite installation. With closed loop motor control on the same board as the sound they stay in sync pretty well. There's always the option for a sound cam. No problem with diesels, of course.

I think this comes down to viewing distance to model. If the viewing distance is "platform" or "lineside fence", then out of sync chuffs are really noticeable, and once spotted becomes even harder to ignore. However, if the viewing distance is "a field or more", then I wonder if it's that important.

Which also brings up "loco sound" or "entire train sound". The problem with loco sound is the lack of sound from everything else - wagon buffers, couplings in train, wheel flanges, etc..

[wakefield]

Sound is a great advance for our hobby. I am not entirely happy using it. I find the lack of base response for the exhaust beats a downside. I know many of us are ok with it. Three good friends, of mine, Dave Bradwell, Bob How and Chris Pendlenton have made great strides into getting good results.
My ideal system would comprise of decent size speakers placed strategically round the layout. Taking one loco for example it would lock on to the nearest speaker and as it progressed round the layout it would pick up the next speaker. If that could be made to work it could also be ok for multiple locos.
This system may of course already exist. Our friend’s across the pond may be there, I do not know.
Now I wait for, as we said back in the forties to be shot down in flames.
Mike Wakefield.

[zebedeesknees]

Thank you gentlemen for your responses.

So it would seem that there are no successful sound systems for use in 4mm scale without a DCC installation, and even those are more work in progress than a finalised product. DC users and radio control enthusiasts excluded.

We await technology to satisfy our desires?

No problem, an opportunity!

Ted.

[Rod Cameron]

Which also brings up "loco sound" or "entire train sound". The problem with loco sound is the lack of sound from everything else - wagon buffers, couplings in train, wheel flanges, etc..

My ideal system would comprise of decent size speakers placed strategically round the layout. Taking one loco for example it would lock on to the nearest speaker and as it progressed round the layout it would pick up the next speaker. If that could be made to work it could also be ok for multiple locos.
This system may of course already exist. Our friend’s across the pond may be there, I do not know.

Yup. Good as some are, for some time I've thought that on-board loco sound is a dead end. We need some means of theatrical/computer controlled/multi-speaker overall soundscapes. I await any developments with interest.

[nigelcliffe]

So it would seem that there are no successful sound systems for use in 4mm scale without a DCC installation, and even those are more work in progress than a finalised product. DC users and radio control enthusiasts excluded.

Not at all, just not looking in the "right place". Though it does depends on how much you consider anything to be "work in progress".

System which don't require a DCC decoder, off the top of my head (even if major use may be on DCC equipped layouts):

• Surroundtraxx (by SoundTraxx in US). System which uses multiple under-baseboard speakers tied to loco throttle speeds and loco location via "transponding" messages. Transponding data is public, so its possible to write your own transponding message source (I have done one), and thus effectively "faked" the Digitrax hardware listed as required by the maker. Throttle speed depends on what the radio transmitter can transfer to the system.
• Traincontroller (software) optional packages +4DSound. Whilst TrainController is primarily a DCC oriented bit of software, could probably be bent to working differently. The Sound option is under-layout based. However I probably wouldn't start there, unless already a TrainController user.
• JMRI, virtual sound decoder and "SoundPro". Components in the large JMRI package (JMRI is not a DCC-only package, vast amounts of it are useful for non-DCC layouts). Virtual Sound Decoder is a software outside of-loco tool for sounds based on throttle settings (so requires something from the radio transmitter/throttle into JMRI, there being many ways of doing that). SoundPro is a 4-speaker surround sound element which can place sounds within a multi-speaker environment. For a typical layout, it may be better to imagine four speakers strung out along a layout, then four in a square, so sound moves from back-left to front-left to front-right to back-right to move along the layout. JMRI for this will involve a fair bit of faffing in software, because "SoundPro" has looked a bit "under developed" for a long time.
• Various sound packages with software within a Raspberry PI. There is an eight-channel mixer package which can dynamically mix eight sources at a time (altering speed, volume, stereo placement, start/stop, looping position, etc. all in real time). With suitable sound files, and linked to model control it can provide sounds where required. Mine is built using a Raspberry PI software lesson pack written for school age programming classes, so not advanced programming. (I've had one in very early prototype form for some years for layout ambient and entire-train sounds (recording of train passing), I really ought to dig it out and move it to a demonstrable unit).

And there will be many more options.


- Nigel

[wakefield]

Thanks for that run down Nigel.
I had no idea that those systems were out there. Mind you I do start to tremble with the mention of
Programming etc. I am aware of JMRI. Quite often I find that some things that seem daunting at first are not so bad when you start to search for help.
Can not see me doing much toward it at the moment. I have a fairly large layout to keep working on but might just a peek to see what it is all about. Of course, all of this clever stuff falls flat at the first fence if the sound files are not up to it.
Mike.

[Porcy Mane]

We need some means of theatrical/computer controlled/multi-speaker overall soundscapes. I await any developments with interest.

That sounds expensive. DCC can simulate this in a fashion. Some small decoders can utilise transducers (Hall effect/reed etc.) to to play sound project effects from within the loco at predetermined points on the layout. Saves remembering to operate a function button.

I can't see why this would not operate in reverse. A small neodymium magnet fixed to a loco under-frame could trigger different sounds being played at different parts of the layout. Doesn't even have to be DCC.

As most are probably aware, very small decoders can be had nowadays. This is a non sound CT Elektronik DCX77z chip fitted in a B'mann Wickham trolley. The CT chip is no longer available but Zimo now does an equivalent size (MX615N) that is a little more sophisticated. Zimo also has a sound decoder that measures 14 x 10 x 2.6 mm.

WickhamMdlingBM-013-CombSm.jpg

P

[zebedeesknees]

So it would seem that there are no successful sound systems for use in 4mm scale without a DCC installation, and even those are more work in progress than a finalised product. DC users and radio control enthusiasts excluded.

Not at all, just not looking in the "right place". Though it does depends on how much you consider anything to be "work in progress".

And there will be many more options.

Thanks Nigel, but I was hoping that there would be an on-board system using 1S Li-Po that could be just plugged in, in the spirit of the r/c starter kits from The Stores. No need to wire track, learn programming, or even understand how it works, just plug 'n' play!

Similar in fact to the MyLocoSound product on the Micron site, but small enough to fit in a 4mm scale tender or even side tank.

Those who posed the question at Scaleforum seemed to be looking for a reason not to use battery and radio control, and appear to have succeeded - so far.

Ted.

[nigelcliffe]

So it would seem that there are no successful sound systems for use in 4mm scale without a DCC installation, and even those are more work in progress than a finalised product. DC users and radio control enthusiasts excluded.

Not at all, just not looking in the "right place". Though it does depends on how much you consider anything to be "work in progress".

And there will be many more options.

Thanks Nigel, but I was hoping that there would be an on-board system using 1S Li-Po that could be just plugged in, in the spirit of the r/c starter kits from The Stores. No need to wire track, learn programming, or even understand how it works, just plug 'n' play!

Nearest I can think of which works now would be TrainTech's sound capsule. http://www.train-tech.com/index.php/sou ... d-capsules.
However, its poor when compared to any good DCC decoder of at least the last ten years. The capsule can't emulate shutting a regulator and coasting, or applying brakes. Or in the diesel sounds the gear changes in an early DMU, with the corresponding coasting as the unit slows, or the change in diesel and traction motors in a diesel-electric. Doesn't synchronise with wheel movement for chuffs. Lacks even a "blow whistle" command.
http://www.train-tech.com/index.php/sou ... d-capsules


Or, from the US, the Bluerail based stuff (Bluetooth radio, so different radio transmission to the Micron stuff), and the Blunami sound decoder. That might be the start of something which could rival current DCC loco-based sound.



- Nigel