DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

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Ian Everett
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DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Ian Everett » Mon May 26, 2014 9:09 am

Don Rowland says the future is wireless. Is he right or should we beware false prophets (as Clegg is no doubt saying about Farage)?

I am in the (sort of) fortunate position of using DC and have the option of moving either to DCC or wireless. When we move house I hope to develop Clecklewyke into a much more complex system with loco depot, goods sorting yard and a town terminus (Bradford N.W.) which would be cramped into a small space, and thus require complex pointwork. I have to say that one of the real attractions of wireless control for me is the elimination of the need for any power supply wiring (except at topping-up points). I am very bad at it (I once nearly killed my physics teacher by wiring a 13amp plug wrongly) so any reduction or elimination of the need for track wiring would save a lot of time and the potential for errors.

I really do think that, if you have not already made a large investment in DCC, wireless is the way forward for the long term - say within ten years. My wife used to tease me that I was the only telecomms manager she knew who didn't have a mobile phone. Thirty years ago I didn't foresee a day when fixed telephony would be in decline (my network at Oxford Uni was entirely a cabled network) but now everything is wireless - phones, printers, lap tops, tablets, even my toothbrush!

But the big problem is which system to choose. I don't want to be left with the equivalent of a Zero 1 wireless system.

Of course you could say that I was wrong thirty years ago and I'm still wrong today but I think not! :?

As I see it advantages of wireless over DCC are:

1) No track wiring
2) No need for pick-ups on locos
3) Simpler chassis construction than split-frame
4) Elimination of track cleaning/poor pick-up issues
5) Elimination of short circuits and wiring maintenance issues
6) Any wireless loco can run on anyone's layout, be it DC or DCC, simultaneously with other types of loco
7) On existing layouts one could spread the cost by changing over one loco at a time so no need for a "big-bang"

Disadvantages:

1) lack of agreed standards (Get your act together NMRA!)
2) difficulty of fitting receivers and batteries into small locos (but this is getting easier as micro-technology advances)
3) need for recharging points (Acc+Ess talk about using wireless induction charging, like my toothbrush)
4) the need to switch off locos to stop drain on batteries (auto-switch-off like TVs, tablets?)
5) interference between adjoining layouts at exhibitions (surely the RC plane-fliers have this sussed?)

Thoughts, experiences (especially experiences!), counter-arguments please!

Ian
Last edited by Ian Everett on Mon May 26, 2014 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

jayell

Re: DC and DCC are dead - is wireless the future?

Postby jayell » Mon May 26, 2014 1:01 pm

After I'd put together a small layout for my great grandsons last year I realised I'd like to build something for myself. I'd played around with EM guage many, many years ago but this time around decided to do it 'properly' and go to P4. After joining the society and having read all I could about track building I realised that for various reasons I did not want a conventionally wired layout.

I will be 82 in a few months time so don't have all that much time to build anything more that a very simple layout so ended up planning on putting together a GW branch line diorama based on a long defunct line in Dorset. Originally I had planned on it being a static model only but then realised that it might be possible to use battery power and radio control. I had ordered a GW 850 saddle tank kit from AG as this was the closest to the loco used on the branch back around 1906 and had realised I was going to have problems putting it together due to the smallness of most of the parts, I am finding this a problem with the wagons I am trying to build, partly due to the fact that I no longer seem to have fine control of my right hand. I used to repair clocks as a hobby 20 years ago so hadn't expected to find handling small parts a problem.

I had discovered that a guy in Australia was using r/c components from Deltang here in the UK and asked him if he would build my loco and incorporate a Deltang receiver along with the Lipo battery/3 volt gear head motor system he was using for the larger scale models he usually built into it. After looking at the kit he thought he could squeeze it in and eventually I got back a working radio controlled, battery powered 850 class loco.

So as far as I am concerned DC/DCC systems were dead from the outset. I don't have to worry about the need for electrical isolation or even connecting one length of rail to another, baseboard joints will only require rail alignment. Rusty rail or dirty wheels will no problem as there are no pickups. I don't know what length of run one charge of the battery will give me but as I am not concerned with exhibition running that isn't a problem either. The couple of turnouts needed for my diorama will be wire in tube operated so no need for elctrical power there either.

I do have to switch the battery on/off and plug in a charger so this system won't suit everyones needs. It is however much cheaper than the system described in the recent issue of Scalefour News. I have only the basic TX21 single loco controller but the TX22 can 'bind' to 12 locos (although only runs one at at a time).
The TX21 is available as kit at £21 or ready built for £46, the TX22 is slightly dearer. Receivers are available with many options and can be custom designed if there isn't one to do what you want and cost £25-30 each.

I do not know what the motor in my loco cost nor who made it but I think that trying to use conventional 12 volt motors will severely restrict what locos can be built. Deltang receivers are small enough to be fitted into N gauge locos so no problem fitting them into almost any 4mm scale loco

I do have a problem with my loco which is nothing to do with the control system but it means I am going to have to replace the wheels before it will run reliably on P4 track due to the a couple of tyres becoming detached from the plastic centres and my attempt to re-glue them didn't work too well. (Colin of AG thinks this may be as a result of having used an incompatible paint)

John Lewis

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Re: DC and DCC are dead - is wireless the future?

Postby nigelcliffe » Mon May 26, 2014 3:58 pm

We did this in Scalefour News a year or so back. I wrote a part of the articles which appeared. I haven't seen anything to alter what I wrote back then.

My view is that wireless is the future, though its some way off being common.

Lack of a standards is a problem; MOROP would do, the European trade body. It doesn't need to be NMRA who probably couldn't organise a new standard at present given lack of progress on various bits of DCC.

The other issue is batteries and motors. Current model motors are based around 12v DC. But, battery technology tends to go for around 5v (to drive electronics), so either that means multiple batteries, or voltage doublers, or changing the motors used in models.

Something nearer to that proposed by Protocab (but they've gone very quiet recently) is likely to be the way forwards, based on a mesh radio protocol. That shouldn't have interference problems even with multiple layouts using it at an exhibition. But, it needs an agreed standard for multiple manufacturers to adopt, not a single vendor proprietary approach.

The simple radio control system which Deltang produce seems excellent for small numbers of locos at home; its cheap and it works - John Lewis' reported experience above is a good illustration of its use. But at exhibitions I'd be worried about interference issues if several large layouts all tried to use such a system. (The remote controlled 7mm scale lorries on "The End of the Line" which was on show at RailEx uses the Deltang components ).


- Nigel

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Re: DC and DCC are dead - is wireless the future?

Postby dcockling » Mon May 26, 2014 4:59 pm

I think the title of your thread, or at least the first half of it, is wrong Ian. Wireless may well be the future, but not, I would say, for a long time yet, and DC and DCC certainly aren't dead.

How many of the layouts at Railex for example utilised DC, how many DCC and how many Wireless? Do the same calculation for any recent show.

Far from dead I'd say.

All the Best
Danny

Tor Giffard

Re: DC and DCC are dead - is wireless the future?

Postby Tor Giffard » Mon May 26, 2014 5:13 pm

Evenin' all,

Having stood and watched a friends pride & joy (some WW2 radio controlled model warbird) refuse to respond to commands once it was airborne, instead, it flew straight and true towards the horizon until it was lost to sight....I'm prepared to concede that wireless is an option...but that is all.

Why do we need to talk about the demise of what we know...just because a new idea wanders past?

Dave
Last edited by Tor Giffard on Mon May 26, 2014 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jayell

Re: DC and DCC are dead - is wireless the future?

Postby jayell » Mon May 26, 2014 5:19 pm

Tor Giffard wrote:Why do we need to talk about the demise of what we know...just because a new idea wanders past?
Dave


It is not so long ago than most serious photographers wouldn't even consider using digital cameras, today it is difficult (if not yet impossible) to get photographic film. Back then digital was just a new idea wandering past ;)

John

Tor Giffard

Re: DC and DCC are dead - is wireless the future?

Postby Tor Giffard » Mon May 26, 2014 5:39 pm

...and for every case like that there are half a dozen that don't make it. There is still no point in talking of the demise of long established standards until we have more than speculation as fuel.

Rgds

Dave

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Ian Everett
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Re: DC and DCC are dead - is wireless the future?

Postby Ian Everett » Mon May 26, 2014 6:20 pm

Dan et al,

of course DC and DCC are not (yet) dead - neither is three-rail - my heading was admittedly hyperbole (amazing I still remember that word, not having used it since O levels!) designed to get a reaction.

I'll turn it into a question, if I can work out how...

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Re: DC and DCC are dead - is wireless the future?

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon May 26, 2014 6:26 pm

Something nearer to that proposed by Protocab (but they've gone very quiet recently)

They were at Expo EM last weekend, they have been busy discovering the truth of Murphy's second law.

Current forecast is for release of Beta versions later in the year.
http://protocab.com/index

Keith
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Re: DC and DCC are dead - is wireless the future?

Postby Ian Everett » Mon May 26, 2014 6:44 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:
Something nearer to that proposed by Protocab (but they've gone very quiet recently)

They were at Expo EM last weekend, they have been busy discovering the truth of Murphy's second law.

Current forecast is for release of Beta versions later in the year.
http://protocab.com/index

Keith


They say on that page that their first products will be available in Spring 2013! I confess I did not talk to them at Scalefour North. Does anyone know their current state of play?

Since my first post I have communicated with David Pritchard of Lococontrol (see http://www.lococontrol.co.uk/index.htm ) and it seems that the Deltang product they retail (see http://www.deltang.co.uk/index.htm ) is not really suitable for anything smaller than O Gauge, being primarily aimed at the one engine in steam garden railway. It is both too big for most 4mm steam locos unless a permanently coupled van is used and not really suitable for a large number of locos controlled by several operators as it does not have a proper dial-up system for selecting the locos to be controlled.

Ian

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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Tim V » Mon May 26, 2014 6:45 pm

looking at Don's article:

1. I don't like controlling locos on a keypad.
2. Although the firm might be there today, what about tomorrow? I could end up saddled with an obsolete system I can't add any more locos too, as the chips used are no longer manufactured.
3. I do not like the use of NimH technology. What is wrong with LioN? Plenty of better batteries out there.
4. Can you seriously get a battery into some of the small locos out there?
5. Derailment (unheard of of course in P4)? Loco keeps going the juice is still there.
6. Battery leakage? Could destroy your model.

And what is the big deal with wiring? In 30 (that many!) exhibitions, the most serious electrical failure I've had was where a loco hadn't been shut off properly, and crept onto a crossing, shorting the staging roads. Possible operator error.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby jim s-w » Mon May 26, 2014 7:24 pm

There's no reason why not it can't be a third option to my mind, however it's not an all or nothing situation, it's just an option.

It's a bit of a heckmondwyke moment really. It needs a big exhibition layout to prove it can be viable.

Cheers

Jim
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Tim V » Mon May 26, 2014 7:48 pm

I think you are right there Jim, can you see it working under the Bullring.....
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

jayell

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby jayell » Mon May 26, 2014 9:16 pm

[quote="Tim V"]looking at Don's article:


3. I do not like the use of NimH technology. What is wrong with LioN? Plenty of better batteries out there.
4. Can you seriously get a battery into some of the small locos out there?

3. My loco uses a lipo battery, I know there are some potential problems with that technology but providing they are not misused they are safe.
4. there is a battery and receiver in my 4mm scale GWR 850 class saddle tank loco which is quite small.

850_01.jpg


the overall length of the loco is about 4 inches, the 'gearbox' at front of motor fits over the front axle but I don't know where the builder fitted the battery or receiver but presumably in in the saddle tank as it is not under the motor.

John

PS I have just been up in the roof to measure it and it is actually 85mm long over buffers, the gearbox is 9.5mm long which will give some indication of the size of the motor.
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon May 26, 2014 9:38 pm

I confess I did not talk to them at Scalefour North. Does anyone know their current state of play?

As per my post which you quoted! I think he said July but I'm not sure which is why I settled for later in the year.
Keith
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John Fitton

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby John Fitton » Mon May 26, 2014 10:39 pm

In converting a Bachmann AL5 to and AL1 with an old Tri-ang (ex Hornby Dublo) body, I stripped out all the DCC nonsense and added lead weight so the thing could actually pull a decent load up a 2% grade. I am sure 20 gauge wire will still be available when I need to do repairs, and this way I can focus on the hard bit: getting the trains to run reliably.

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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby jim s-w » Tue May 27, 2014 5:21 am

johnlewis wrote:4. Can you seriously get a battery into some of the small locos out there?


It's the big locos you need to worry about.

Image

A class 50 is one of the largest locos out there and hornby have left an awful lot of space compared to other RTR diesels but even then it's tightly packed. Of course a Lima 50 is preactically empty but do we really want to go back to pancake motors and 2 axle drive?

Jim
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Terry Bendall » Tue May 27, 2014 6:18 am

Like some others, I would agree that radio control could well be the thing of the future. It is I believe quite common amonst those who build garden railways but for our size of models I am not convinced that it is yet sufficiently viable to be a sensible option. I am one of the probably diminishing number of people who still use DC and have no intention of going down the DCC route. I can make DC do everything that I want to do, including double heading if required, and shunting moves that include adding and taking off tail traffic from a passenger train standing in a platform with the train engine still attached.

As Tim V said, what is the big deal? It is not that difficult to do and to take up one of Ian's points that started all this, there should never be mains voltage on a layout so the risk of harm should stop at the power supply. Yes there is the problem of dirty wheels and rails but that just needs a bit of cleaning. Even if wirless control is used the wheels would still need cleaning to remove the crud that builds up over time.

Terry Bendall

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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Ian Everett » Tue May 27, 2014 7:30 am

Terry Bendall wrote: to take up one of Ian's points that started all this, there should never be mains voltage on a layout so the risk of harm should stop at the power supply.

Terry Bendall


Fear not, Terry, I was not saying DC or DCC were dangerous, I was simply quoting one, rather dramatic, example of my inability to connect wires A, B and C to the right terminals. I think I might have a double slip to wire and I'm dreading that!

One of my main objectives in designing the controls for my extended layout will be to avoid operators having to think at all about electrics but to be either signalmen and control just points and signals, or to drive trains according to those signals. I expect to have "jobs" for up to two or three signalmen and three or four drivers when CRAG turns up in force. This is simple with DCC and potentially so with wireless but pretty difficult in DC. It can be done but not by me! I admire those people who can.

So my choice is either DCC or wireless.

Ian

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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby John Bateson » Tue May 27, 2014 7:52 am

A while ago I started a thread about starting over again here.
The current wiring in the attic and the 50+ relays were a real nuisance to design and build and it will be a delight to junk them all and use the copper to pay off the national debt of somewhere (Wales?).

So, I am looking forwards to batteries in my tenders! I am a little concerned that Protocab has gone quiet and their web site seems to have no updates for a considerable period so I will follow this thread with some interest.

I see a good parallel with the sort of decision modellers make in answer to the question "Shall I try P4?". The usual answers depend of commitment to previous gauges and where the investment is large in for example '00', it may not be a good idea, but if the modeller is starting over or from new then P4 is a plausible (and perhaps the sensible) option. The same applies to any decision to move to DCC, a large investment in straight DC may make it too expensive to consider but starting from new it is, I feel, the only plausible option.
In the case of battery powered locomotives, neither of these choices apply since a visitor to either a DC or DCC layout could, if the wheels were isolated, simply plonk and drive, observing all the rules of the road as would any driver. It may be the ideal solution for those of us who want to separate bobbies from drivers anyway.

And won't it be lovely to get rid of all those horrible pickup things that spoil the view...


John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby nigelcliffe » Tue May 27, 2014 8:38 am

Ian Everett wrote:
I was simply quoting one, rather dramatic, example of my inability to connect wires A, B and C to the right terminals. I think I might have a double slip to wire and I'm dreading that!

[.....]

So my choice is either DCC or wireless



So, you lack some knowledge around wiring, you propose to head off into uncharted alpha-testing of electronics for radio control ?

A double slip isn't difficult *if* you understand the principles involved. I'm sure there are plenty who'd be willing to spend time explaining it clearly.
It doesn't even need much wire, or much "switchery gubbins".
If willing to spend a few pounds there are automated DCC devices which sit beside the track and will do it all for you - so called "Frog Juicers". Those devices are incredibly simple to connect - three wires, one to each of the DCC feed wires and one to the crossing (frog). No other setup needed. Connect a device to each crossing (frog) on your slips and the current is switched automatically for you as the wheels touch the crossing. ( Electrical switching purists, including me, are not keen on these for various reasons. But they do work, and if wiring is a real blind-spot for you, they may be the right solution for you ).


- Nigel

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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby martin goodall » Tue May 27, 2014 8:52 am

I have been convinced for some time that radio-controlled on-board power from rechargeable batteries will become the norm. BUT - not yet awhile.

I have serious reservations about DCC, so will stick to 'stone-age' DC until or unless a reliable indsustry-standard R/C on-board battery system is produced. I am not convinced that the small concerns that are trying to develop this technology at present are going to be able to deliver. It will need the entry into the market of one of the big players and/or the involvement of the NMRA before this happens.

Meanwhile I shall just have to soldier on with my trusty old DC controller (actually a fairly new one, containing some quite sophisticated electronics - it's the scraper pick-ups on the locos that are antediluvian).

At least we have moved on from the on/off battery box with two 'Ever-Ready' 6-volt cycle-lamp batteries wired in series, which came with my original Tri-ang toy train set!

jayell

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby jayell » Tue May 27, 2014 9:43 am

martin goodall wrote:I have been convinced for some time that radio-controlled on-board power from rechargeable batteries will become the norm. BUT - not yet awhile.

I have serious reservations about DCC, so will stick to 'stone-age' DC until or unless a reliable indsustry-standard R/C on-board battery system is produced. I am not convinced that the small concerns that are trying to develop this technology at present are going to be able to deliver. It will need the entry into the market of one of the big players and/or the involvement of the NMRA before this happens.


I don't think the big players have any interest in new technologies, they have too much investment in DC/DCC systems, so it is the newcomers that will lead the way. The system I use has its foundation in radio controlled model aircraft/boats, tanks and the like and use an industry standard (Spektrum DSM2). David Theunissen of Deltang has been making his own design receivers since 2009 and has been more than willing to adapt designs to suit peoples specific requirements. He contributes to the R/C forum on RMWeb.

My main concern with the schemes like the one under development by a firm based in Scotland whose name eludes me at the moment is that is so complex that it may never get to market in an affordable form for the average modeller, using computers, smartphones, central control hubs and all the rest of it is bound to make it much more expensive than a sytem based on single loco control as a starter.

The system I am using works, it may not be possible to fit it into something as small as Paul's Coffeepot loco but anything with a tender should be a doddle. Trouble is it wil require a change of attitude to break away from the traditional 12 volt motor designs of the past. I am sure that even those currently "impossible to adapt" Hornby modern diesel outline locos could be re-designed as r/c battery powered locos if the manufactures had an interest in doing so _or_ could have a scratch built chassis to go under the plastic body. It would however require people to re-think their ideas on how models should be built.

I am lucky I suppose that I don't have any investmant in traditional ways of doing things and have a wife who sort of allowed me to spend quite a bit of
money on having my loco built, I guess shes got used to me spending oodles of money on mountain bikes or rock climbing gear over the past 40/50 years :D

John Lewis

billbedford

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby billbedford » Tue May 27, 2014 11:49 am

I've been watching Ted Scannell playing with radio control for the the last three years, first with Plantraco gear, and latterly with Deltang. So here are a few insights I've gleaned from Ted's efforts.

Advantages :

> 1) No track wiring
Not necessarily. It is perfectly possible to put the transceiver between the pickups and the motors. In fact that would be the preferred way of dealing with RTR diesels as they tend to have limited headroom for batteries etc. There is also the possibility of hybrid solutions with both track pick-up and batteries.

> 2) No need for pick-ups on locos
see above

> 3) Simpler chassis construction than split-frame
see above

> 4) Elimination of track cleaning/poor pick-up issues
see above

> 5) Elimination of short circuits and wiring maintenance issues
??

> 6) Any wireless loco can run on anyone's layout, be it DC or DCC, simultaneously with other types of loco
True

> 7) On existing layouts one could spread the cost by changing over one loco at a time so no need for a "big-bang"
True

8) The transceivers are rated by their power output, so we have a much wider choice of motors than those of the ageing Mr Mashima.

Disadvantages:

> 1) lack of agreed standards (Get your act together NMRA!)
The wireless protocols are de facto standards, so for instance all 2GHz systems will work with all other 2GHz systems. However there are a number of different protocols that could be used, each with it's own strengths and weaknesses. So I would be reluctant to advocate a 'standard' that could shut out promising developments.

> 2) difficulty of fitting receivers and batteries into small locos (but this is getting easier as micro-technology advances)
True, batteries, especially offer an interesting set of compromises. See below.

> 3) need for recharging points (Acc+Ess talk about using wireless induction charging, like my toothbrush)
Finding space in a small loco for a recharging socket is an interesting exercise.

> 4) the need to switch off locos to stop drain on batteries (auto-switch-off like TVs, tablets?)
Only for storage. Acc+Ess are advocation a capacitance touch switch mounted under the cab roof.

> 5) interference between adjoining layouts at exhibitions (surely the RC plane-fliers have this sussed?)
No more of a problem than crosstalk on your cell phone.

From what I can see the weakness in the systems revolves around using LiPo batteries. They take longer to charge than discharge, which is why aircraft & boat modellers tend to use replaceable battery packs. These don't appear to be very practical to me. LiPos are also not very dense, so the space they occupy cannot really be used for adhesive weight.

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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Noel » Tue May 27, 2014 11:52 am

It's a very long time since I did Physics 'O' level, so I may be on quite the wrong track, but my understanding is that, ignoring efficiency levels and the gearbox fitted, the power a motor puts out depends on the size of the motor and the power input. Which leaves me wondering what sort of load a loco with a low voltage [i.e. significantly below 12v] supplied by a small battery would be able to move, and for how long?

Noel
Regards
Noel


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