DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

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John McAleely
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby John McAleely » Tue May 27, 2014 12:38 pm

Ian Everett wrote:As I see it advantages of wireless over DCC are:

6) Any wireless loco can run on anyone's layout, be it DC or DCC, simultaneously with other types of loco



Only to the extent that the wireless doesn't collide with other wireless systems in use (try using wifi at a conference for IT professionals, if there has been no advance planning). Also, if your loco represents a short to the host layouts DC or DCC system, it will cause the circuits it is on to be shutdown for other locos. What affect that has on the layout will depend...

(and yes, even DC. DC systems aren't as fussy as DCC to brief shorts. But if you build your loco as a conductor from one rail to another, even DC systems won't like it).

It seems to me that people desire wireless for one main reason - to separate power supply from control. With wireless you have the clear option to deliver power via batteries or any other source that's not the rails. Delivering power to 2 rail track formations is sufficiently complex that a material number of modellers would really rather not.

With that said, there are a couple of challenges. Firstly, finding a wireless method that spans the range of model railways we build - from single turnout shunting planks, to multi-room systems. Whilst DCC might have a sweet spot for certain sorts of layouts, I think a big part of its appeal is that you can buy it in confidence you can use it on any sort of layout you might imagine. It's not yet clear to me that there are wireless protocols which cover this wide range.

The other challenge is all of the detail work around making the protocol robust - so a standard which several manufacturers can implement, a standard which means it's easy to have many layouts in one hall, and so on. It doesn't have to be a standards body - a defacto standard published by a successful manufacturer could also work.

It seems to be a good time to experiment with wireless, but for me both of those challenges are ones I want to see others solve before I jump in.

jayell

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby jayell » Tue May 27, 2014 12:55 pm

[quote="billbedford"]

> 3) need for recharging points (Acc+Ess talk about using wireless induction charging, like my toothbrush)
Finding space in a small loco for a recharging socket is an interesting exercise.

How about this solution then Bill?

charge_skt.jpg


The red blob is the on/off switch, apologies if my photo doesn't clearly illustrate the charging socket and the cable that plugs into it. The other end of the cable is a pretty standard wall plug giving a DC output of 4.2V, 1.5A.

So far as the batteries are concerned I don't know how long they will last, I only have a yard of track for it to run on and there is a limit to how many times I can run it backwards and forwards on that before my patience runs out. I could turn it upside down and time how long it takes to rundown I guess but, I havent' tried that yet, so neither do I know how long it will take to recharge. For my purposes neither 'problem' will worry me.

John Lewis
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KK92

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby KK92 » Tue May 27, 2014 1:25 pm

A very interesting topic and surely one way to go but just depending on what you want.

I'm currently using a Deltang system for my garden railway in 7/8ths scale. Even the 3 amp reciver is so small that it would fit into a 0-6-0T. The voltage can span from as low as 4.8 volts to 12 volts. It even allows additional functions. I use an RCS http://www.rcs-rc.com system handheld transmitter that is built from Deltang components and it is not bigger than any handheld conventional controller Image.

With the 2.4.GHz technology I see no problem with multiple users as the individual binding of the receiver to the controller will prevent any interference between users.

The only area in which wee need to dig more deeply is batteries and motors for voltages lower than our actual nominal 12 volts DC. If a standard of lets say 4 volts could be agreed on the the provision of charging equipment would not be an issue as either 4 NImH or 1 LiPo cell will be involved. Modern chargers however automatically take care of the number of cells of NIMH cells. with the multiple cell Lipos it is a different story becuase of the need of balancing the sigle cells. I we avoid the later some sort of chargin track could be devised (at the MPD?)...

As the wheels of locomotives no longer are required to transmit any electricity the like as Gibsons are no problem on other layouts.

John Fitton

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby John Fitton » Tue May 27, 2014 2:04 pm

I suppose we could be looking at a hybrid system where the main trains are powered off the track, but bankers and station pilots could be RC/battery controlled and powered. Hmmmm. Lots of room in that case in the coal tender for a battery. Or even realistic operation of a GWR slip train actually slipping the RC coaches,

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Tim V
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Tim V » Tue May 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Of course, the real clincher for me in the adoption of DCC was the fact I could route set the staging roads.

No mention of wireless control of points - or is there?
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

jayell

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby jayell » Tue May 27, 2014 3:47 pm

Tim V wrote:Of course, the real clincher for me in the adoption of DCC was the fact I could route set the staging roads.

No mention of wireless control of points - or is there?



Deltang receivers for servos are available I think

John

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Paul Townsend
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Paul Townsend » Wed May 28, 2014 5:11 am

johnlewis wrote:
The red blob is the on/off switch, apologies if my photo doesn't clearly illustrate the charging socket and the cable that plugs into it. The other end of the cable is a pretty standard wall plug giving a DC output of 4.2V, 1.5A.

John Lewis

OK for one 0-6-0 but less practicable for a large layout where there maybe 20 or so locos all coupled to trains and with many wheels and pony trucks etc.
The paint and loco details would suffer from such frequent handling and the prepping and deprepping would drive the operator insane.
Induction charging and proximity on/off switching are essential adjuncts IMHO.
The charge point would have to be cheap as several would be required on a large layout. My cell-phone inductive charger cost c £70 last Autumn...too much for several...however the components are cheap now so DiY would make it probably less than £10 each and a pretty box is not required. I haven't seen a design for MR published yet but I am sure the chip suppliers have put Application notes out so it should be easy for someone who has the time and need.

Terry Bendall
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed May 28, 2014 6:30 am

John Bateson wrote:And won't it be lovely to get rid of all those horrible pickup things that spoil the view...

martin goodall wrote:it's the scraper pick-ups on the locos that are antediluvian).


billbedford wrote:No need for pick-ups on locos


The use of split axles, or for tender locos, making one side of the loco live and the other side of the tender live, avoids the pick up problem. :)

Paul Townsend wrote:however the components are cheap now so DiY would make it probably less than £10 each and a pretty box is not required


A valid route for those who really know the technical stuff but if mains voltages are involved, and I presume that they would be, not to be recommended for those who find connecting up 12 volts difficult. :) Whilst the box need not be pretty, there should be some sort of box just to prevent accidental contact with mains voltage.

John McAleely wrote:Only to the extent that the wireless doesn't collide with other wireless systems in use


Could be interesting if one person's radio controller starts to drive a loco on another layout. :twisted:

To my mind the amount of faff involved, charging batteries, fitting them and the receivers to locos, is such that I would not even bother. DC and for those who want to use it, DCC can do all that is needed.

Terry Bendall

KK92

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby KK92 » Wed May 28, 2014 7:27 am

Paul, Terry,

We are only at the start of future developments regarding remote control with on-board batteries.

The application of this technology has to be looked at from the idea from which it was developed first.

R/C control will surely not replace DCC for highly complicated layouts. I think we should differentiate between layout control or just locomotive control.

The main difference lies in the approach that is taken in Europe for controlling layouts compared to the way they do it on the other side of the Atlantic.

European main line Railways always employed a centralized control involving signal boxes and the related inter-communication. Light railways are a different breed.

In the US the engineer (engine drive) follows her/his train on very large layouts and setting the routes along as hen proceeds. Here the R/C approach for long walk-around layouts might be an interesting approach.

The same could be applied for small layouts depicting just a single station or short stretch of a line. Especially the SGW seems suitable where the smooth operation of a loco is the main focus.

I do not see any real application for controlling points and signals with R/C as this makes no sense to, either cost nor for more reliability as some wiring is always involved and this is perfectly developed. Be it DCC or conventional or even mechanical does not matter here.

I see the main focus in realistic operation of locomotives and dispensing with the ever critical wheel to rail contact for supplying power and with DCC information.

As I have already mentioned with the 2.4. GHz technology you must forget all you have heard about frequencies and channels as with the former 27 MHz and so on R/C, this does no longer apply.

Form the operation of a single engine by a dedicated 'engine driver' I see the following more realistic options:

- Reliable operation because of the on-board batteries
- Wireless control
- With the limited amount of energy stored in the battery a new element will be introduced in that each engine need its energy replenished from time to time (maybe that is not really desirable for a big exhibition layout)
- Everything that is possible with DCC in a loco like remote uncouplers, sound etc. is also possible with R/C.

If you go for the 'Master of all things' approach where you combine all control elements in a single big control panel R/C has no practical value.

Regarding the battery charging there a a lot of possibilities. If we leave out the multi cell LiPos charging can be quite simple and with NiMH charging is an automatic process that takes not really long.

So what about:

- A charging track: If we still use some sort of pickup connected to the battery, such a track can be integrated in an MPD?
- An on-off switch can be realized with reed switches that are activated by a magnet?

jayell

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby jayell » Wed May 28, 2014 7:36 am

KK92 wrote:- An on-off switch can be realized with reed switches that are activated by a magnet?


Deltang already have this built in to a receiver if you want it
see here:-
http://www.deltang.co.uk/

John

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Tim V
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Tim V » Wed May 28, 2014 2:58 pm

I assume the frequencies used are approved for model railway use?

Because if they are not, I'm a bit concerned about having my layout confiscated, if I'm using a frequency outside its permitted usage.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

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jim s-w
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby jim s-w » Wed May 28, 2014 4:14 pm

KK92 wrote:
Form the operation of a single engine by a dedicated 'engine driver' I see the following more realistic options:

- Reliable operation because of the on-board batteries
- Wireless control
- With the limited amount of energy stored in the battery a new element will be introduced in that each engine need its energy replenished from time to time (maybe that is not really desirable for a big exhibition layout)
- Everything that is possible with DCC in a loco like remote uncouplers, sound etc. is also possible with R/C.



When has anything battery powered been more reliable than something mains powered? It's the battery that to me is the problem with reliability. The digitrax throttes we use are wireless and You can get DCC decoders with 'range' although why you'd want to I dont really know.

As for the last line, how would consisting work via RC? Would you need 2 drivers?

Cheers

Jim
Jim Smith-Wright

http://www.p4newstreet.com

Over thinking often leads to under doing!

KK92

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby KK92 » Fri May 30, 2014 6:32 am

Hi Tim,

Tim V wrote:I assume the frequencies used are approved for model railway use?

Because if they are not, I'm a bit concerned about having my layout confiscated, if I'm using a frequency outside its permitted usage.


As I wrote earlier, forget everything that you heard of frequencies in the old days of MHz R/C.

The new 2.4 GHz sets are approved for all applications in R/C not even a lot of other applications. The principle is that information packages are sent via the frequency that are addressed to a unique receiver all other receivers are ignoring this information at it is not destined to them. Even the receiver checks that the information comes from its dedicated transmitter. There is a short process called binding by which you assign the transmitter to the receiver and vice versa.

These sets do not relay on the frequency or channel to identify the matching Transmitter and Receiver. The 2.4 Ghz frequency is just used to transmit digital signals just like DCC transmits the information via the rails to the decoder.

Generally speaking there is little difference between the transmission of DCC and 2.4 GHz R/C apart from the DCC being developed exclusively for railways. 2.4. GHz is a bit broader.

I feel we should discuss the whole idea just by the facts and leave out fiction and folklore ;)

No one would confiscate your whole layout if you run a loco on one using the then old frequencies that might be not allowed for surface application (the old 35 MHz).

KK92

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby KK92 » Fri May 30, 2014 6:48 am

Hi Jim,

jim s-w wrote:When has anything battery powered been more reliable than something mains powered? It's the battery that to me is the problem with reliability. The digitrax throttes we use are wireless and You can get DCC decoders with 'range' although why you'd want to I dont really know.

As for the last line, how would consisting work via RC? Would you need 2 drivers?


In my earlier posts I stated that R/C might not be everyones cup of tea and good this is.

I've been playing trains most of my life and apart form my Märklin H0 30+ years ago all attempts of using 2 rail did not really satisfy me due to pickup problems.

I have looked at DCC systems especially when the sound options were becoming available and just found that small engines could not be run satisfactorly. With R/C I just need to make sure the battery is charged in both transmitter and loco and I can run (even off-rail if I would be inclined to do so :twisted: ). All systems that rely on wheel to rail contact need the whole system maintained to a fairly high standard contact wise.

R/C with on-board batteries in my eyes, is just another option. I like the approach, you might stay with DCC. We should not make this a 'religious' 'battle of the systems'.

Contray to the provocative title of this thread I would not agree that DC and DCC are things of the past (well maybe for me) as each system has its advantages and disatwantages.

Let's not hold our breaths but just see what comes up.

Tor Giffard

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Tor Giffard » Fri May 30, 2014 7:19 am

...indeed, I've recently taken delivery of my first Pictroller for use on Tor Giffard (a DC layout). The smooth running with small engines such as the Dapol Beattie well tank is very impressive.

Rgds

Dave

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John Bateson
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby John Bateson » Fri May 30, 2014 7:26 am

Tim V wrote:I assume the frequencies used are approved for model railway use?

I believe they are approved for for model aircraft - so just run the Cheltenham Flier?

John - and apologies for my weird sense of humour at this time of the morning...
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby jim s-w » Fri May 30, 2014 7:33 am

KK92 wrote:Hi Jim,

All systems that rely on wheel to rail contact need the whole system maintained to a fairly high standard contact wise.

R/C with on-board batteries in my eyes, is just another option. I like the approach, you might stay with DCC. We should not make this a 'religious' 'battle of the systems'.


Hi

I agree, it's not an either or situation. However it's important that anyone considering battery power for P4 especially is aware from the start that the mainanence of track and wheels of all stock will still need to be to the same standard. Because of the tolerances we use a build up of crud on wheels can lead to running problems and de-railments.

Cheers

Jim
Jim Smith-Wright

http://www.p4newstreet.com

Over thinking often leads to under doing!

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Noel
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Noel » Fri May 30, 2014 8:28 am

John Bateson wrote:I believe they are approved for for model aircraft - so just run the Cheltenham Flier?


Or perhaps Railway Air Services, John?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Air_Services

Noel
Regards
Noel

KK92

Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby KK92 » Fri May 30, 2014 9:19 am

Don't forget the Flying Scotsman :mrgreen:

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Ian Everett
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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby Ian Everett » Fri May 30, 2014 3:01 pm

KK92 wrote:Don't forget the Flying Scotsman :mrgreen:


Or the Fliegender Hamburger

This is beginning to get silly!

Ian

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Re: DC & DCC are the past, wireless is the future - discuss

Postby martin goodall » Fri May 30, 2014 3:45 pm

jim s-w wrote:
However it's important that anyone considering battery power for P4 especially is aware from the start that the mainanence of track and wheels of all stock will still need to be to the same standard. Because of the tolerances we use a build up of crud on wheels can lead to running problems and de-railments.



But it's not so critical if you use EM-profile wheels set to the P4 back-to-back, rather than P4 wheels.


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