DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly question!!!

[steves17]

This isn't strictly a P4 question, but i could do with some advice. My fancy SEBX SUPER EMPIRE BUILDER XTRA from digit rains came the other day. I just finished making my power bus and was keen to see something move by its self. Its from America originally so you have to hook up your own power imput. The manual has pages and pages of what it can do but only a diagram of the unit that basically says imput power here- which is two wire ports that have screws coming down to hold them in place. I decided to use my dinosaur Hornby controller from the early nineties. Cut off the cord at the nob switch point , stripped back the wire casing and tried powering it up.
I now have blown three extension cords! Obviously i am missing something. I don't know if the amp is too high or that i have put the polarities in the wrong way round, or what. I have emailed the company on the web site but i am not sure how long it will take for them to respond and i want to make a good go at modelling over today and the weekend.
Has anyone used this device or knows something i don't? This is all new to me so i would be grateful. There doesn't seem to be a connection for the earth wire either if thats important.

[Tim V]

Have you powered up the unit away from the layout?

[steves17]

Yeah, i thought i would just try it to see if it would power up. Does it need to be linked up to give it resistance or something? I would have thought it would be self contained. I know it shuts down the track if there is short but this is diferent.

[Tim V]

I assume you are putting 16vAC into it?

I did hear of someone who tried putting 220v into their DCC controller, the results I'll leave to your imagination!

And what do you mean by an "extension lead"?

[Will L]

I assume you are putting 16vAC into it?

I did hear of someone who tried putting 220v into their DCC controller, the results I'll leave to your imagination!

And what do you mean by an "extension lead"?

Actuals reading the instructions it is remarkably reticent about saying just what variety of electricity it expects from the power supply which isn't supplied in that package. Its going to be pretty meaty if it is going to be capable of supporting 20 amps output. They will of course sell you a suitable power supply but the instructions for that are equally silent as to what it outputs, although it does say it power input is switch-able between European supplies at 230 volts and American at 115. Is there a hint on it in terms of volts, amps or watts input or output on the data label these things usually have on the back?

[steves17]

Sorry i'm a little out of my depth with electronics. Four of my normal house hold type extension leads blew there fuses which i was using to link them up to the plug. As i said i don't know much about electronics but i can at least change a fuse. The old Hornby plug lead is 13amps. I'm kind of thinking this is too much for modern equipment. Digitrains are an American company- do i need an AC DC converter? I have no more fuses at 13 amps in the house now and i know something is wrong. If it is just the amp I could just put in a smaller fuse, as i assume all british plugs are essentially the same other wise in this regard . As i stated the manual has information on everything but wiring it up to a power source.
I'll check the manual for any other hints but i don't think it mentions anything. I did get from a UK devision and at the price it cost, its quiet frustrating it didn't come with a plug. I was hoping someone out there owns one.

[Tim V]

I don't understand your description of what you have done, can you post a picture?

[Tim V]

Actually on re-reading your original post, you did use the complete Hornby unit, and not just cut off the mains lead.....

[steves17]

The first link is just a Hornby lead cut of.

The second shows the unit hooked up to an old iron lead.

The manual mentions 12V DC supply for daisy chaining ports to plug in control cabs. Thats about the only thing i can find along with 5 or 8 amps for boosters.

The hornby lead had no earth ( yellow green if i'm right ) but the iron lead does. The unit diagram i have doesn't mention any thing about it and there is no where for it to go.

[Tim V]

I'm afraid I am speechless, you were lucky the extension leads blew.

[steves17]

hmm.. now feel ashamed. I did tape off the earth wire and ultimately the fuse is there to prevent any melt downs or shocks and its not like i was near any bare wire. Still i was chancing it somewhat.

[Tim V]

Having calmed down, I've looked at the instructions and the Digitrax website. The controller is probably a write off.

http://www.digitrax.com/products/starte ... /#lightbox[product]/0/ says a power supply is needed (as expected), or you could use your own. The Hornby unit would have done, had you not cut off the mains lead. The Digitrax unit expects low voltage, about 16-24v (though I don't see it specified), but I haven't researched it.

[steves17]

I do feel foolish and am kicking myself. Looking on the link i'm still no the wiser on what i SHOULD use. The system would still need 8 amps to run with boosters.

No sorry it is 5 amps for the system. Could i just try putting in a 5 amps fuse in a 13 plug and see if it still works?

[David Thorpe]

Having had a quick look on the net it seems that a 16V 5A Power Supply is recommended for the Super Empire Builder Xtra. You therefore need a proper power supply that will transform mains voltage to 16V AC, eg http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/s ... upply.aspx.

DT

[Alan Turner]

From the instruction manual at page 35:

Power supply requirements are

AC: max 20v, min 12v

DC: max 28v, min 12v

both at 5amp.

MERG do a suitable power supply at 15v DC at 6amp for £27.60.

By the way you are lucky to be alive.

regards

Alan

[steves17]

Yep Tim it looks like i fried it. I tried a 5 amp fuse in a plug but it has no life. It is supposed to be able to handle AC or DC. I'm surprised the old Hornby controller had a 13 amp in its plug. This has been an expensive mistake and i'm furious with my self. Hopefully i can get it fixed or replaced under their no worries guaranty cover. If not at least I've learned something if nothing else.

Thanks Alan.- Yes I was being very ignorant. I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm lucky to be alive ,as i did state i wasn't near any bare wire and put electric tape over the earth cable, but i won't be so foolish in the future.

[grovenor-2685]

I tried a 5 amp fuse in a plug but it has no life. It is supposed to be able to handle AC or DC. I

Steve, I'm not sure from this that you have understood the message yet, you cannot connect mains electricity to your controller no matter what amperage fuse it has in it.
It requires a LOW voltage like the output of your hornby controller not the input. You must use either a transformer with a 16V AC output as commonly used for model railway accessories or a Power supply unit with a 15V DC output which these days are cheaper and easier to use. These are common as they are used as power supplies for Laptop computers as well as DCC controllers and most other electronic gadgets They do come in various voltages and current ratings. The voltage is important for a DCC control system 12V will be to low, 18V a bit high, somewhere in between is good. The amp rating will govern how many trains you can run simultaneously, 1 amp for 2 or 3, 3 amps for 7 or 8, 5 amps should be good for 12 or 15.
Keith

[steves17]

Thanks Keith. I continued reading up on it last night and do now understand. Originally i thought the unit would convert the power in the same fashion the old Hornby device does with its input. I now have a much better grasp on things. I only wished the starter package came with a plug- like just about every other device on the market (which is also a fair bit cheaper). I understand why people wouldn't want to pay extra for a plug each time- so units could just come by themselves or have a separate package deal. But ultimately i have only myself to blame. Hopefully this will be the worst thing i do this year.

[Guy Rixon]

I tried a 5 amp fuse in a plug but it has no life. It is supposed to be able to handle AC or DC. I

Steve, I'm not sure from this that you have understood the message yet, you cannot connect mains electricity to your controller no matter what amperage fuse it has in it.
It requires a LOW voltage like the output of your hornby controller not the input. You must use either a transformer with a 16V AC output as commonly used for model railway accessories or a Power supply unit with a 15V DC output which these days are cheaper and easier to use. These are common as they are used as power supplies for Laptop computers as well as DCC controllers and most other electronic gadgets They do come in various voltages and current ratings. The voltage is important for a DCC control system 12V will be to low, 18V a bit high, somewhere in between is good. The amp rating will govern how many trains you can run simultaneously, 1 amp for 2 or 3, 3 amps for 7 or 8, 5 amps should be good for 12 or 15.
Keith

To amplify Keith's perfectly-correct advice, for electrical beginners, the number of amps quoted for the power supply is the output and not what is drawn from the mains. High voltage side of the transformer in the power supply, low amps; low voltage side, high amps. Therefore if you get an 6-amp-output power supply it would only need a small fuse in its mains plug, probably 3 amp.

[Will L]

Thanks Keith. I continued reading up on it last night and do now understand. Originally i thought the unit would convert the power in the same fashion the old Hornby device does with its input. I now have a much better grasp on things. I only wished the starter package came with a plug- like just about every other device on the market (which is also a fair bit cheaper). I understand why people wouldn't want to pay extra for a plug each time- so units could just come by themselves or have a separate package deal. But ultimately i have only myself to blame. Hopefully this will be the worst thing i do this year.

Keep on reading you're still not saying the right things. The reason It doesn't come with a pug is because you can't/must not pug it in the mains. As Keith says you need a proper power supply which does plug into the mains and which outputs an electricity supply of the correct voltage. I'm afraid the instruction for this unit (available off the web) are not clear on this point. Frankly you are fortunate not to have given yourself a sever electric shock capable of killing you, and having put 240 volts into the box and blown several fuses I suspect it is now no more than scrap.

As clearly you haven't ever had the chance to learn about the wonderfully world of electronics I would very much suggest that before you progressing any further you find somebody to help who has the relevant experience.

Keep safe

[nigelcliffe]

Did you discuss what was needed with the supplier, or just order without any discussion ?

A discussion with any decent UK dealer would have listed the other things needed to make it work, important for a system which will cost many hundreds of pounds. A good dealer would also have explained the pros and cons of systems available and the limitations of a DB150 (the DB150 is not the best starting point for a system for various technical reasons).

I am amazed that someone with limited knowledge of electrics decides to wire mains directly into a device and hopes to survive !
As others have said, get proper advice before wiring things together, there is too much missing in Steve's answers above to be confident that the problems and dangers are understood.


- Nigel

[steves17]

No i meant in my reply to Keith that i now understand i need more than a lower amp plug.- I meant with a low voltage converter along with it. Its quite true I was being a bone head and I have indeed effectively shoved a lightning bolt down my unit. I will find a suitable adaptor and look further into it before a try this again. And yes I did just order it off the internet. I know its not really a starter set but i didn't see the point of buying a basic Hornby/Bachmann set only to upgrade later on as i do understand the extra features it offers.
I know how unbelievable what i did would be to anyone you understands electronics. Thanks for setting me strait on the issue.

[dave_long]

Can I suggest you buy a new DCC set from a UK supplier ie someone like Digitrains! Next time a trip to a local Maplin might be in order as they can help you buy a suitable transformer.

Dave

[steves17]

I did actually buy from Digitrains and see now the transformer that comes separately with it. As i said I assumed the transformer was inside the unit. After months of building, I got a little excited at the prospect of seeing a small section I had just made a power bus for work. I feel like I could burn water at this point, but have brought a replacement unit.- lucky it wasn't hocked up to anything else at the time. I might be able to get the original fixed for my next layout down stairs - depends if what i did counts as intentional damage. I live in the middle of the sticks, so online is the only real option untilI I go to the next big convention. But rest assured everyone, I won't make this mistake again- I know I should of read more on it first.

Will- I guess you know of two idiots who plugged up to the mains now.

[nigelcliffe]

Online purchasing is the only option for most people, because decent DCC dealers are perhaps fewer than a dozen. So chances of one being within 50 miles of anyone's home is low.

I strongly recommend talking to a dealer before spending more money, either by phone or email, and getting advice on suitable system to meet the intended use. Try a few dealers; some are much better at explaining things and trying to understand a customers needs than others.
I'm not suggesting that you should get a "starter set" or a "train-set unit"; they are frequently not the right option. Its quite likely that something more expensive than your DB150 choice is actually a better option, for example the DCS100(*).


(* The DB150 lacks a proper programming output, so you can't read loco decoder settings. Its also short on capabilities for routing turnouts if you ever intend to run turnouts from the DCC system. )