DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly question!!!

steves17

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby steves17 » Sat Mar 08, 2014 11:56 pm

Hmm.. thats a shame Nigel. I thought the only difference between the models was one had a wireless control set up for an extra load of cash- which i could later add on. I was under the impression I can route set a fair number of points on this system - the DB150 as it can operate a large range of decoders Locos or accessories. Oh well. Route setting is some thing i can worry about down the road.... Regardless I have made my bed now and I can't afford anything more extravagant. If i find it short for my later purpose i will upgrade then, but i have plenty to get one with for my first humble layout, which only has four points, that I plan to control through one accessory decoder - until its expanded onto connecting layouts that are planned. But I think this layout will keep me going for a year easily enough based on my rate of progress.
Baby steps first.

nigelcliffe
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:31 am

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby nigelcliffe » Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:19 am

steves17 wrote:Hmm.. thats a shame Nigel. I thought the only difference between the models was one had a wireless control set up for an extra load of cash- which i could later add on. I was under the impression I can route set a fair number of points on this system - the DB150 as it can operate a large range of decoders Locos or accessories. Oh well. Route setting is some thing i can worry about down the road.... Regardless I have made my bed now and I can't afford anything more extravagant. If i find it short for my later purpose i will upgrade then, but i have plenty to get one with for my first humble layout, which only has four points, that I plan to control through one accessory decoder - until its expanded onto connecting layouts that are planned. But I think this layout will keep me going for a year easily enough based on my rate of progress.
Baby steps first.


I was under the impression that you were planning to purchase a replacement for the damaged one. If that's not the case, or you've already bought it, then fine, no point discussing. If you haven't spent the money, then a discussion may be worth holding, as you may end up with a more appropriate system, conceivably for less money than you anticipated.

Your assumptions about model ranges is incomplete/incorrect. Which support my "talk to a dealer" statement.
A programming track is really important for setting up locomotives.

Digitrax' systems are roughly like this:

Zephyr, DCS51. Entry system, though this isn't a "cut down capabilities" system.
Full programming track. 20 loco "stack" (20 locos moving at a time on a layout from 10,000 possible locos). Can expand in any manner. Probably the "appropriate" choice for a layout with four turnouts.
Can be used with an external throttle handset, such as a DT402, can be expanded to radio handsets.
Compared to DB150, Zephyr has programming track and Zephyr has lower total current (but not an issue on small layouts).
Compared to DCS100, Zephyr lacks advanced turnout routing, fast clocks, and has smaller stack.

Empire Builder DB150. Mid-priced system. Lacks programming track. 20 loco "stack".
Usually ships with DT402 handset. Optionally has radio handset (for considerably more money).
Compared to DCS100, the DB150 lacks programming track, advanced turnout routing, fast clocks, and has smaller stack.

Chief System DCS100. Top system, though only slightly more expensive than DB150. Full programming track. 100+ loco "stack". Turnout routing, fast clocks, and numerous other features.
Usually shipped with DT402 handset. Optionally has radio handset (for considerably more money).


In terms of costs, through my local specialist DCC retailer:
DCS51 - £155 with power supply.
DB150 with power supply but no throttle - £180. (but you should have a throttle from your original set)
DCS100 with power supply, but no throttle - £245.



I've used an old Zephyr DCS50 for ages. Its more than capable of running a decent branch line layout. I have DT402D radio throttle and base station for it, as well as an Uhlenbrock Fred throttle, a computer interface, throttle software on my iPod, etc..


- Nigel

User avatar
Paul Townsend
Posts: 964
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby Paul Townsend » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:12 am

Most that needed saying has been but in interests of helping the OP to avoid another near death experience here is my twopennorth:
You recognised the need to avoid touching the earth wire of your test mains lead but I want to ensure you understand that there is every likelihood of the metal parts of the casing having been attached indirectly to your mains input. If it has a metal case there was a 50/50 chance of the whole case being at 240v. If a plastic case then if any metal screw heads show these likewise could have risen to mains live voltage.

A device intended for around 20v ac or dc input is quite likely to have the internally derived 0v DC attached to the case. Even if it was not directly attached little attempt would have been made to keep them separate enough to withstand full mains input.

IT IS THIS ASPECT AS MUCH AS THE EXPOSED EARTH WIRE THAT WAS YOUR HAZARD.

I am glad you lived to move onwards and upwards and reiterate others recommendation to get a more knowledgeable chum to check what wiring you do before connecting the mains again.

steves17

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby steves17 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:04 am

Thanks for the further advice Paul. I kind of knew what i was doing was a bit iffy, hence why i wasn't near anything when I turned it on. As its been pointed out i'm lucky the only shock was to my wallet.- Feel a bit like I've been sent to the naughty step.

Yeah Nigel, I've already ordered a replacement DB150 which is second hand from e-bay The lambing is almost upon me, so i was hoping to have my layout partly operational. to prove I actually could do something like this and make it work, as i won't really have any free time for the next two months.
The original one wasn't plugged into anything else- so only that has been fried. In retrospect I should have gone for the DCS100 for my future plans, but i can just swap it over at a later time when i expand. As i say this 4metre layout is fairly basic by its self and is essential a working test track and by the time I get further on with my plans I should know a lot more about the technical side of things.I understand the need for a separate/isolated programming track. I was hoping to see a few demonstrations at the NEC- which is how I ended up joining the scale four society - bypassing OO entirely, so every field is new to me. But it was pretty manic there- Felt a bit like Charlie at the chocolate factory. I think the next event i will attend will be the Wells expo where I can expand my p4 knowledge and actually talk to some people in the know.
Thanks for letting me know the differences between the systems- As you said I really should have talked to a dealer first.

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 3033
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:22 am

steves17 wrote:Thanks for the further advice Paul. I kind of knew what i was doing was a bit iffy, hence why i wasn't near anything when I turned it on. As its been pointed out i'm lucky the only shock was to my wallet.- Feel a bit like I've been sent to the naughty step.


I think that's only because we don't like to see *any* of our members fried, charred, shocked or otherwise harmed. So to speak, don't take it personally as a slap on the wrist, just as a learning point - which I think that you have.

And also, from the interest and comments that have been made, I hope that you'll realise that there are a lot of people that are only too willing to help with advice and guidance. Don't forget - we've almost all been there at some point ourelves...

steves17 wrote:The lambing is almost upon me, so i was hoping to have my layout partly operational. to prove I actually could do something like this and make it work, as i won't really have any free time for the next two months ...
I was hoping to see a few demonstrations at the NEC- which is how I ended up joining the scale four society - bypassing OO entirely, so every field is new to me. But it was pretty manic there- Felt a bit like Charlie at the chocolate factory. I think the next event i will attend will be the Wells expo where I can expand my p4 knowledge and actually talk to some people in the know.


Real Life (tm) can annoyingly get in the way like that, but perhaps it will also give you a couple of months to take a breather, perhaps do a bit of background reading in a spare five minutes, and think about what you would like to know next. And perhaps ask a few questions in anticipation of picking up the practical modelling again.

And do come and say hello on the Society Stand at Wells. We don't know yet who will be manning it, although it's always good to put a face to a name.

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

steves17

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby steves17 » Sun Mar 09, 2014 11:53 am

LOL. It probably is a good policy to keep members alive and well! I did need a good slap on the wrist for being so fool hearty.
I have asked advice on problems in the past and i must say people have been very accommodating for nOObs like me. If i can just make a working TOU and program my accessory decoder then the last big hurdles are out of the way and everything else is just scenery. I've read about using the hollow square rod for operating the blades so i will try this. Programming the decoder doesn't look too tricky.
Nothing but plain sailing from here ;) ....but if i do run into any other problems i will ask for help.
Cheers.
Ps. Will those P4 Jinties and Panniers be sold there or is it only at Scaleforum? I might end up going to that one instead, as there isn't much difference in terms of distance to me and it turns out by brother living near Glast won't be there at the time its on anyway.

User avatar
Paul Willis
Forum Team
Posts: 3033
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:00 pm

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby Paul Willis » Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:24 pm

steves17 wrote:Ps. Will those P4 Jinties and Panniers be sold there or is it only at Scaleforum? I might end up going to that one instead, as there isn't much difference in terms of distance to me and it turns out by brother living near Glast won't be there at the time its on anyway.

I'm afraid not... They were (for the time being) a once and for ever exercise.

That said, if you can acquire a OO RTR Jinty or Pannier, and a set of the appropriate Untrascale wheels in advance (give yourself plenty of time for the ordering), I will virtually guarantee you that in half an hour at Scaleforum, a man (whose name might be Mike Ainsworth, but it may not...) will show you how to convert it to P4.

And after that, not only will you have a running locomotive, but you'll have learned how to do the next one yourself as well :-)

Cheers
Paul
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

Terry Bendall
Forum Team
Posts: 2420
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:46 am

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby Terry Bendall » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:19 am

Flymo748 wrote: but you'll have learned how to do the next one yourself as well


Which is by far the best way of learning things - by doing it yourself, accepting that mistakes may be made and treating these as part of the learing.

Terry Bendall

User avatar
Ian Everett
Posts: 379
Joined: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:43 pm

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby Ian Everett » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:04 am

Terry Bendall wrote:
Which is by far the best way of learning things - by doing it yourself, accepting that mistakes may be made and treating these as part of the learing.

Terry Bendall


Hear, hear!

But not with mains electricity!

I confess I thought that April 1st had arrived early when I read the first postings but then I remembered how, when in sixth form, I connected the earth wire to the live pin on a plug,and nearly killed my physics master!

I'm very glad we still have you with us, Steve! You'll also be able to get a lot of support at Scalefour North on 12/13 April - or by joining you local area group.

Ian

steves17

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby steves17 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:09 am

Yes thats true. I know i will need to break into that aspect of modeling at some point. My plan is to start with a few easy deasel conversions and work my way up the chain and eventually make a chassis for an A1. Just thought it would be nice to have a RTR tank engine to test my track out with.I did see a Pannier being tinkered with at the NEC- which is how i ended up talking at the stand as i had read a bit on P4 & EM and was curious about side play and suspension. With their quick sell out sales- thought it was becoming a regular thing. No worries though, as you say it will be important experience for me when i get to it.

Thanks for the suggestion. I might just bring down an engine. It would be great for someone to talk me through it. Will continue reading up on modelling in the mean time

I did pop down to the nearest club shortly after joining and did learn a few things there - but it an hours drive each way, so it would only be a one off that i could make it. That said i do know a lot more about modeling now since starting my layout and reading through the back issues, so maybe it is time for another drop in to see who is doing what and why.
Ta.

User avatar
Paul Townsend
Posts: 964
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby Paul Townsend » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:55 pm

Flymo748 wrote:
steves17 wrote:Thanks for the further advice Paul. I kind of knew what i was doing was a bit iffy, hence why i wasn't near anything when I turned it on. As its been pointed out i'm lucky the only shock was to my wallet.- Feel a bit like I've been sent to the naughty step.


I think the next event i will attend will be the Wells expo where I can expand my p4 knowledge and actually talk to some people in the know.


And do come and say hello on the Society Stand at Wells. We don't know yet who will be manning it, although it's always good to put a face to a name.

Cheers
Paul Willis
Deputy Chairman[/quote]
And you could find me too at RailWells manning the Broad Gauge Society stall. Your opportunity to take revenge ;)
Feel free to climb down off the naughty step...a week there was long enough :mrgreen:

steves17

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby steves17 » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:42 pm

Ha! Good one Paul.
Fingers crossed i will be acquiring a P4 14xx engine for Oliver within a week and when my replacement unit comes i will be able to see something running -even if its only up to the first turnout. :-P Just need to find some where that sells square rods and appropriate bits to make a TOU system and then I can carry on with making the power bus.
Its not that i'm afraid to have a go at making my own loco, its just that i'm trying to concentrate on making the layout first- Chicken and the egg scenario. The lambing has started now- hence my haste, but i might be able to find a bit of time still until it intensifies. By the time it calms down i'm hoping to have the track finished with working points, then I can concentrate on the scenery. Wells or Scalefour will be on by then, so i'm hoping to make some rolling stock- Will no doubt acquire some kits and tools there along with a few pointers.
I've moved past anger and shame, so you can relax about looking over your shoulder at the stand. ;).
Edit.

After exhausting my loco DIY shops I've now ordered online the same components that Flymo used in the Beer And buckjumper's thread. Should arrive in a day or two- so will follow his procedure and see how it goes.
I won the 14xx bid, so can now see half of my layout working when i go down to Newport and pick him up. Will have a look about to see what they've been doing and why at the same time. :thumb
Ta.
Steve.

steves17

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby steves17 » Thu Mar 20, 2014 10:15 pm

Right i've got my replacement unit now and will be picking up my 14xx loco tomorrow night- so will be keen to see half my layout working now. Currently building the TOU to carry further on afterwards. Now just to make SURE- would something like this be ideal '15V Adapter for Beko 17LE300S, 20LCL49, NR20LB330, NR20LB450 TVs' ? I found it on e-bay for a lot less than the official adaptor. It has a 6amp fuse, 15V output DC adaptor. Assuming that this ideal, I would just strip off the end of the adaptor and insert the two wires into the unit, then power it up right? The only thing i'm not sure of is the end adaptor- its states this is DC but i think that this is what the output is anyway and it is just the circle plug that goes into the TV.

Ta.
Steve.

User avatar
John McAleely
Web Team
Posts: 1231
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby John McAleely » Thu Mar 20, 2014 11:21 pm

steve - with the best of intentions, can I offer some advice?

Given that you've risked serious injury, and blown up a fair amount of kit, I think asking for yes/no advice on electrics on a model railway website is fraught with difficulty.

From the information you've posted, it's possible to assume certain things. Are you assuming the same? I'm somewhat familiar with electrics, but I am unconfident if '6A fuse' meets the specification I would expect, which would be a rated capacity (and which I suspect may differ from the fused amount).

Can you save money buying a generic power supply? Yes. Do you have the knowledge needed to match that generic supply to your expensive DCC kit? You have to be the judge of that.

As a starter question, where in the DCC manual you have does it specify the power supply, and what does it say there?

Terry Bendall
Forum Team
Posts: 2420
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2008 7:46 am

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Mar 21, 2014 7:11 am

My suggestion Steve would be to find someone that you can talk to face to face about this. We can offer advice via the forum but without actually seing the hardware it is not always possiblke to give the correct advice.

You might try your nearest club, even though it is a long drive. Alternatively there might be a member of said club nearer to you who might be able to help. Another possibilty is to post where you live and a Scalefour Society member may be able to assist.

You may also be able to find a model shop not too far away that may be prepared to assist even if you did not buy it from the shop but that is a bit of a long shot.

Terry Bendall

steves17

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby steves17 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:14 am

Ok, for piece of mind i'll order the official adaptor. It has a few different mode sets- 15 volts is what i'm after and is interchangeable with the DCS100 if i do upgrade later on.
I'll e-mail Digitrains now to ask about the 8Amp option for booster usage.

I'll be popping down to the Newport club tonight as well to brush up on things in general
Cheers.

nigelcliffe
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:31 am

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby nigelcliffe » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:55 am

steves17 wrote:Ok, for piece of mind i'll order the official adaptor. It has a few different mode sets- 15 volts is what i'm after and is interchangeable with the DCS100 if i do upgrade later on.
I'll e-mail Digitrains now to ask about the 8Amp option for booster usage.

I'll be popping down to the Newport club tonight as well to brush up on things in general
Cheers.


For 4mm scale, you DO NOT need an 8amp system, and a high current system introduces a load more problem which need to be addressed.

If your layout ever exceeds the output of a 5Amp command station, then buy a second booster for the layout. But, that booster should be fairly small, 5Amp maximum, and will need its own power supply. You might need to consider an additional booster when you have more than six trains moving simultaneously. But, I say "consider", its quite likely the number is over a dozen simultaneously moving trains.


- Nigel

steves17

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby steves17 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:12 am

Thanks Nigel. Its pretty unlikely i'll need boosters for a long time.. if at all. I read on the web about the 8amp option for large layout but even at full size( way down the road ) i don't think i'll be approaching those kind of demands- just wasn't sure. When i got my DCC wiring kit from railway scenics it came with 2 x DCC termination filter kits. As I understand it this is to suppress power spikes. This was bad news for decoders in the early days but is it still worth putting in these- i was going to ask at the club tonight.
- I Upgraded the bus wire to 32/0.2 from CM3 models for any future booster usage later on.
Ta

Alan Turner
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:24 pm

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby Alan Turner » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:09 am

Maplin does a 15v DC 8 amp SMPS for £20 code:04559-UK

regards

Alan

nigelcliffe
Posts: 747
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:31 am

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby nigelcliffe » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:40 am

steves17 wrote:Thanks Nigel. Its pretty unlikely i'll need boosters for a long time.. if at all. I read on the web about the 8amp option for large layout but even at full size( way down the road ) i don't think i'll be approaching those kind of demands- just wasn't sure.


Very few people can use a 5Amp system to its limits in 4mm scale. Think of things in terms of simultaneously moving trains, and assume between 0.25A and 1A per train. If the train isn't moving, then it doesn't count (to a first approximation). So, 5A is between five (1A each) and twenty (0.25A each) simultaneously moving trains.

For a well wired system, I'd reduce the 5A current by breaking the layout into sections (called Power Districts in many documents), each fitted with a current limiting device. This can reduce the maximum current in any section to below 2A, which reduces the demands on wiring and has other benefits. For a small layout, you can have one section and a single power breaker / limiting device.

Big current systems (8A etc.) are bad news all round. They cost more to buy, they require much higher quality to all wiring (costs more), and can do lots more damage to a layout if something goes wrong (8A at 15V is 120W, which is a lot of heat from a soldering iron). It is much better to have a number of low current boosters if they are ever needed.


When i got my DCC wiring kit from railway scenics it came with 2 x DCC termination filter kits. As I understand it this is to suppress power spikes. This was bad news for decoders in the early days but is it still worth putting in these- i was going to ask at the club tonight.


Most likely to be suppressors (a resistor and a capacitor) to deal with "ringing" at the ends of the DCC wiring. Might be vaguely useful, but often overstated in their value. Component cost from an electronics supplier is under 20p, so don't get ripped off !
They are not to suppress power spikes.


- Nigel

Alan Turner
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:24 pm

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby Alan Turner » Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:16 pm

nigelcliffe wrote:

Most likely to be suppressors (a resistor and a capacitor) to deal with "ringing" at the ends of the DCC wiring. Might be vaguely useful, but often overstated in their value. Component cost from an electronics supplier is under 20p, so don't get ripped off !
They are not to suppress power spikes.
- Nigel


If you are sourcing your own components make sure the resistor is a minimum of 0.5W and the capacitor is min. of 50v.

regards

Alan

steves17

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby steves17 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:55 pm

Much obliged everyone.
I went on to the Maplins web site. Wouldn't....
maplin-20w-switched-mode-acdc-fixed-voltage-15v-worldwide-power-supply
Maplin 20W Switched Mode AC/DC Fixed Voltage 15V Worldwide Power Supply
Code: L48BL

...be more appropriate. If not, and i go with the one suggested should i change the 8amp fuse to a 5 amp one?

Alan Turner
Posts: 643
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 4:24 pm

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby Alan Turner » Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:48 pm

steves17 wrote:Much obliged everyone.
I went on to the Maplins web site. Wouldn't....
maplin-20w-switched-mode-acdc-fixed-voltage-15v-worldwide-power-supply
Maplin 20W Switched Mode AC/DC Fixed Voltage 15V Worldwide Power Supply
Code: L48BL

...be more appropriate. If not, and i go with the one suggested should i change the 8amp fuse to a 5 amp one?


your reply tells me that you should not use any power supply oher than that provided by Digitrax for use with their equipment.

regards

Alan

steves17

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby steves17 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 6:57 pm

My only reason for not thinking your suggestion was ideal was the fact that it was an 8 amp input and Nigel stated that it would be much better to stick to 5 Amps with low amp booster if and when needed. As I understand it using a smaller fuse is not a bad thing if its still adequate for the intend device. I might be misquoting Guy with his advice but he said i want a low amp input

Looking at the one i suggested as an alternative i can see it is 15v dc output, but the problem is the output current is1200mA- i assume the m is milli Amps- which i way too low.

I'm not rushing in head first this time, so would like to understand this correctly.

I've gotta rush now as i'm running late, scoffing down me tea before heading to the Newport club, but will re check the manual & web site later tonight.
Ta.

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Forum Team
Posts: 3918
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: DCC Power supplies, warning, was Yet Another silly quest

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:22 pm

My only reason for not thinking your suggestion was ideal was the fact that it was an 8 amp input

You really do need to get the difference between input and output, also the purpose of fuses before you take this further.

The 15V DC 8Amp power supply suggested earlier, is 8A output, not 8 amps input, 8 Amps at 15 Volts which gives a power rating 15 x 8 = 120 watts.

It does not have an 8 amp fuse in the plug. Fuses in the mains plug do not control the output in any way, they are there to stop the cable or PSU catching fire if there is a short circuit or other fault in the power supply unit by cutting off the flow of current if it goes up to a level where the cable or PSU would overheat, in most such units the cable would be rated for at least 10A and a 5A fuse should be fine. The input current of a 120Watt unit will be 120/240 = 0.5 Amps. However SMPS power units often have a high surge current at switch on that will need a larger fuse. Provided you buy a unit complete with cable and plug it should have a suitable fuse in already.

The current to the track is limited by your digitrax settings, not by the current rating of the power supply, as long as the power supply rating is higher than the digitrax settings.
It is the digitrax unit that protects the wiring to the track from track shorts.
Keith
Regards
Keith
Grovenor Sidings


Return to “Electrics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ClaudeBot and 0 guests