Layout Wiring (Heat shrink sleeving etc. etc)

beakie

Layout Wiring (Heat shrink sleeving etc. etc)

Postby beakie » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:46 pm

Hiya Guys :)

Looking ahead to the wiring of a 12ft end to end P4 Layoutand Panel, I was wondering whether any one could tell me how you use these. I can see the need for these in (D connector ) baseboard connecting and the wiring of many switches in the Panel.

How is the heat applied to them? Is there a special tool required? :? Have seen different ratios and sticky insides....

Appreciate any help :(

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Jan 06, 2009 10:51 pm

In the sizes we use for wiring models I find that the side of the soldering iron does the job, slip your piece of sleeving over the wire, solder to the terminal, or make a wire to wire joint, give it a few seconds to cool, slip the sleeve over the joint, gently run the sides of your iron tip around the outside of the sleeve until it shrinks down over the wire, job done.
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beakie

Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby beakie » Wed Jan 07, 2009 7:41 am

Thanks for your reply Kieth, it had been puzzling me for weeks... :D So simple really. I also use a temp controlled soldering unit, which makes this even more feasible.

Had looked at sites that supply components, but no indication...

Many thanks :D :D

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John Bateson
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby John Bateson » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:20 am

Two better solutions for heat shrink sleeves
a) wife's hairdryer
b) hot air blower available from places like Machine mart for around £14
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:11 pm

Why is a hairdryer better John, you would have done it with the iron in the time it takes to change tools.
I would only consider a hot air blower if you have a lot of heat shrink to do in one go. Ok if you are doing 20 pin plugs and you can do it all at once. Not much help for joining a couple of wires to a decoder or wiring a panel switch by switch. And unless you make up a very small nozzle the hot air gets everywhere.
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby derekrussan » Wed Jan 07, 2009 10:25 pm

Personally I would not use heat shrink on a D-type if the wires are cut correctly, inserted and soldered correctly.

At a risk of giving an egg sucking lesson, the following technique is easier to do than explain and works even with limited soldering experience. I am always surprised when I do this how many people watch and have never seen it done this way.

Rule 1 is not to try to use too thick a wire, 24/0.2 will not go, 16/0.2 is really the reserve of experts, 7/0.2 is ideal.

Rule 2, do not completely remove the sleeve when striping the wire, just pull it back a bit to reveal a section of the wire. Try to get an exposed section of wire about 10mm to 15mm long 30mm to 40mm from the end. Then twist the wire quite tightly and tin, drag the soldering iron towards the waste end of the wire so any blob will be cut off. Cut off to leave about 3 to 4mm of exposed wire, ideally the same depth as the pot in the pin on the D-type. The twist and tinning will prevent a strand of wire from sticking out sideways, leaving the sleeve in place holds all wires in place while twisting and also acts as a handle.

Rule 3, About half fill all the D-type pin pots with Solder. If you do not know how much solder to use cut a short length of cored electrical solder and put in the pot, then apply soldering iron. Use a scrap connector and scrap wire to gauge the right depth, the result should be a visible meniscus all round the wire to the pot, and no blob. You soon get to know the right amount

Rule 4, heat the pot with the iron and feed the end of the wire into the molten solder. Remove the iron quickly and you should not melt any of the wire sleeve.

Rule 5, when it is all finished strap the wiring together into a cable (here is a potential use for heat shrink, also ty-wraps or good old fashioned lacing twine) and anchor the cable down within 150mm of the D-type leaving a bit of slack so a there is no excess stress on joints.

So you should end up with each wire with no more than 1mm of exposed wire before the sleeve starts, removing the need for additional sleeving such as heat shrink.

If I ever get time I will make a photo sequence and post it.

Derek
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Jan 07, 2009 11:59 pm

When it comesto multipole D type connectors I would no longer consider soldering them, I use IDC type connectors and ribbon cable, much quicker and easier. Example on the right in this picture, Image
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Keith
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beakie

Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby beakie » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:12 pm

Thanks guys :)

Now you have given me all the various options, I think I need to experiment and find out what works for me.

Very comprehensive, derek. Thinking of using D connectors so will consider your sugestion, although I can see the advantage of using Idc connectors where the current is low enough.

Thanks for the support

Dave :D

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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby derekrussan » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:05 pm

Hi Dave,

Again at the risk of egg sucking lesson:

IDC is a technology (Insulation Displacement Connector) not a style of connector. A flat ribbon of wires is slid into a slot in an open connector which is pressed shut. It is available for Dtypes as well as others. I do not know the current situation but there always used to be issues over a small discrepency between the natural pin pitch of a D-type and the standard ribbon pitch. I believe this was overcome with expensive tooling in the connectors.

I have also used IDC connectors with various degrees of success. There are several reasons I choose not to use them. Firstly I prefer to start wiring at the other end and then I fit the connector last, secondly I try to keep to some sort of colour code and finally the current rating on the individual wires is a low. Ribbon cable prohibits both of these.

There is also some skill required in assembling these, until you get the hang of it you could scrap a few.

There are other alternatives, one is to buy premade D-type cables. These can cost effective as if you cut them in half you get 2 off connectors each with 1m of wire. Something like CSLEAD109 from CPC will give you one male and one female connector for about £2.40. Just cut in half and strip off the sleeving.

Another option is a fan out board, where the D-type is soldered to a board which provides a row or pins or screw terminals to connect to. There is a commercial offering that I designed and made a batch for someone a over a year ago, but their lack marketing is keeping it hidden from potential users. If you want further info contact me.

D-types are very good connectors and almost idiot proof (I did hear of one baboon who managed to plug one in upside down - like HOW). You can always parallel a few pins together to increase the current rating. The availability of cheap cables like the CPC one means that stocking standard cable to connect between boards is easy.

There are only a few fundamentals to remember,

1. Always have any live wires on a socket not a plug
2. All interconnecting cables should be 1 to 1 and male one end and female the other.
3. Do not forget the pin numbers reverse between male and female.
4. If you need more then 25 ways then addin another 9 way is OK, or use 2 X 25, is is probably cheaper and easier than a 37 or 50 way.
5. If you use 2 the same size, make them opposite sex so as they cannot be swapped.

Derek
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John Bateson
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby John Bateson » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:25 pm

Derek,
While the 25w D Type may seem good value, or even very good value, I would be worried about the current rating of this 28AWG wire, which is less than 1/4 amp, so it would be marginal for many model railway applications.
I took the view a long time ago for the stuff in the attic that IDC=BAD, D-Type=GOOD. I have a number of home made 37way (<£1 per socket of plug) 16/02 cables made in accordance with your points 1-5
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

derekrussan
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby derekrussan » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:03 am

Hi John,

It depends on your interpretation.

I always use 7/0.2mm for layout wiring. This has a 1.4A rating and is fine for all but DCC bussing. 28AWG in the table I looked up is a bit thicker (0.33 as opposed to 0.25mm CSA so is at least as good.

In practical terms the limits are thermal, and cables are always rated lower than wires because of the potential for multiple wires all heating at the same time. In typical model rail use this does not happen so the individual wire ratings are more applicable.

The other potential issue is voltage drop and we have used 7/0.2 and these leads on Brinkley for several years without noticing any volt drop effects or indeed giving any cause for concern at all. At 64 ohms per 1000 ft = less than 1 ohm from the control box to any point on a large layout, giving worst case of 1 volt drop at 1A, which we very rarely reach.

It will take 10's of amps to fuse the wire, several amps to reach sleeve melting temperatures and more than we are likely to use to even see a noticeable temperature rise.

So I see no valid reason not to use them.

Derek
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby John Bateson » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:13 am

Derek,
http://www.interfacebus.com/Copper_Wire_AWG_SIze.html show 28AWG as 0.228 Amps
However, http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm is more explicit and for chassis wiring the limit is 1.4 Amps and for power it is 0.228 Amps as above.

I really am confused now. I think perhaps I shall duck below the parapet and stick to my own standards, which I admit are very conservatively based i.e.
16/0.2 for anything that feeds a track and is potentially a DCC bus - (which potentially has a feed length of 45 feet but worries about volts drop should disappear with the adoption of DCC)
and 7/0.2 for individual gadgets like point motors, signalling and other circuitry where I know the cabling is never going to be shared.

All of which I religiously terminate in D-Types using standard RS or Maplins heat-shrink sleeving and a hair dryer to shrink it (just to get back on topic). I have noted a certain 'chunkiness' in my wiring, perhaps an over-reaction caused by watching too many people at shows spending time under their layouts with soldering irons!

John
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby derekrussan » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:56 am

Hi John,

Just to try to de-confuse. To all intents and purposes 7/0.2 and 28SWG are near enough the same thing. I agree that for DDC 7/0.2 is too light. Personally I prefer 24/0.2 to 16/0.2 for this. If it is a heavily loaded system with coach lights etc then over that distance volt drop may be an issue.

As you say for all other use 7/0.2 is fine. The lower ratings are for when it is bundled into a cable and all wires are carrying the same current so under those circumstances it can get hot. In our typical use with lower or intermittent loads on most of the wires the 1.4A figure is usable.

Derek
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Rod Cameron
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby Rod Cameron » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:30 am

So is ribbon cable (1.0A each I believe) suitable or not suitable for connection leads between a panel and layout boards (this is just for DC + point motors, LEDs etc, but includes 16V AC supplies to remote controller sockets)? Over what distance in practice would it become a problem? Previously I've used 7/0.2 for all of this sort of stuff without problems.
Rod

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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby derekrussan » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:48 am

Rod Cameron wrote:So is ribbon cable (1.0A each I believe) suitable or not suitable for connection leads between a panel and layout boards (this is just for DC + point motors, LEDs etc, but includes 16V AC supplies to remote controller sockets)? Over what distance in practice would it become a problem? Previously I've used 7/0.2 for all of this sort of stuff without problems.


Hi Rod,

Check the spec on the specific cable you intend to use, but typically 25 way ribbons 7 strand by just under 0.2mm, probably the reason for the slightly lower spec of 1A, I doubt if you would even see a performance difference to 7/0.2. No problem to use for other than DCC for all of the above. My only concern is that the wires are designed for ID not soldering. The sleeve is softer and maybe it is only a feeling but they seem more delicate when stripping and soldering.

For a flying lead between panel and board I would always choose a round cable as it is sleeved and more robust than an open ribbon. Within a basebaord this is not such an issue.

Derek
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby Rod Cameron » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:58 pm

Thanks Derek :)
Rod

beakie

Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby beakie » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:30 pm

Hiya Guys :)

Thanks all :D

This topic has moved nicely into another area which puzzles me to, so while we are here... . :?

I am building a branchline terminus 12ft long, I'm intending to go DCC and and anticipate about 4 power districts. Cant see more than 3/4 locos moving at the same time, if that. Was going to use 32/0.2 wire for the Power Busses for Traction only. Likely to go for Nce/Gaugemaster/ Digitrax etc which are around 5amps issh.

Alot on the RMforum seem to recommend 2.5mm (house ring main wire) for this Power Bus. Is the 32/0.2 not adequate enough for my proposed project(thought it was). It is rated at 6amp(10amp commercial) not sure what the commercial rating is.

I have also researched lots of connectors at Maplins and others, and not many have any ratings. I have found 5amp rated D connectors, but it is difficult to find ratings that high because I guess they are primary for Electronics use. I am mainly thinking of baseboard connectors for the Power Buss.

This made me think of frog switching, using the Tortiose Switch contacts rated at only 1amp I believe. Is that not suffient for the kind of Dcc currents we are talking about.

derekrussan wrote:
There are only a few fundamentals to remember,

1. Always have any live wires on a socket not a plug
Derek


Derek, I would be grateful if you could explain this further. Thinking of the situation where there are joining plug + socket. Wonder if I am misinterpreting this and the situation you are referring to. :mrgreen:

Welcome help here guys :?

Regards Dave :(

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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby derekrussan » Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi Dave,

Agree we are way OT, but I i'll just keep answering point raised, maybe slow down a dit as I am off to India tomorrow for a week.

32/0.2 is 1mm CSA as you say rated at 6A so this should be OK for DCC. Commercial rating is usually a more relaxed spec compared to industrial and military specs for wider temperature range. The advantage of mains cable is that it is cheap and readily available, being thicker it also drops less voltage, but you are unlikeley to notice. You could also consider the use of lighting installation cable, 1.0mm.

High power connectors have always been an issue. Resistance soldering units typically use 4mm (banana) plugs, but these are under rated for this use. For DCC distribution one option is to use old fashioned 5A (or even 15A) round pin mains plugs and sockets, but not if you have then in use in your house for mains. Anothe option for up to 10A is IEC mains connectors (as in PC's and Kettles) but again extreme care to avoid them being plugged into mains. There are a number of co-axial connectors of reasonable rating used for battery chargers. Try searching somewhere like cpc.farnell.com for "Connector 5A" and you will see.

The safe way to overcome the limits on Tortoise and other switches is to use them to pull in a relay of sufficient rating. As microswitches with decent rating are typically over £2 each it is not surprising that the rating in such mechanisms are low.

The comment about using Plugs vs sockets is best explained as follows. If your have mains present on a plug and your apparatus on a socket you will soon be dead. At 12V there risk is not to life, but in getting the volts where they should not be or being shorted out. So make sure that and live bits are in sockets.

Derek
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby derekrussan » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:55 am

Sorry Dave,

I missed the obvious. If you are on DCC then the point motor switch need only carry the current for the frog,not the track beyond. Therefore it will only ever current to max of one loco at a time, so 1A is enough. Just make sure you wire the layout correctly for DCC and not for typical DC control.

Derek
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beakie

Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby beakie » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:25 am

Hiya Guys

Thanks Derek :D

derekrussan wrote:Agree we are way OT, but I i'll just keep answering point raised, maybe slow down a dit as I am off to India tomorrow for a week.


No worries derek, original post had been answered think we had progressed anyway.

derekrussan wrote:The comment about using Plugs vs sockets is best explained as follows. If your have mains present on a plug and your apparatus on a socket you will soon be dead. At 12V there risk is not to life, but in getting the volts where they should not be or being shorted out. So make sure that and live bits are in sockets.


Arrrggghhhhhh, Derek... you were of course talking about 230V Mains . Can see that as a huge risk, as you say Brown Bread.

derekrussan wrote:I missed the obvious. If you are on DCC then the point motor switch need only carry the current for the frog,not the track beyond. Therefore it will only ever current to max of one loco at a time, so 1A is enough. Just make sure you wire the layout correctly for DCC and not for typical DC control.


Off course derek, need more braincells..... ;)

Thanks Derek. Have good trip in India...

Regards Dave :)

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby Rod Cameron » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:03 pm

beakie wrote:Arrrggghhhhhh, Derek... you were of course talking about 230V Mains . Can see that as a huge risk, as you say Brown Bread.


But the point is still valid for 12V or 16V Dave, as Derek mentioned at the end:

derekrussan wrote:but in getting the volts where they should not be or being shorted out. So make sure that and live bits are in sockets.
Rod

beakie

Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby beakie » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:34 pm

Rod Cameron wrote:
beakie wrote:Arrrggghhhhhh, Derek... you were of course talking about 230V Mains . Can see that as a huge risk, as you say Brown Bread.


But the point is still valid for 12V or 16V Dave, as Derek mentioned at the end:

derekrussan wrote:but in getting the volts where they should not be or being shorted out. So make sure that and live bits are in sockets.


Thanks Rod, But i'm still missing something...... :? sorry

Guess I'm thinking about a Dcc Power Buss, interconnecting between baseboards.. Possible 5amp.
Was originally thinking of a Male/Female connection(all should the buss be terminated, at baseboard ends with Female sockets) and interlinked with a Male to Male leads.

Sorry for the confusion on my part...

Regards Dave

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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby derekrussan » Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:50 pm

beakie wrote:Guess I'm thinking about a Dcc Power Buss, interconnecting between baseboards.. Possible 5amp.
Was originally thinking of a Male/Female connection(all should the buss be terminated, at baseboard ends with Female sockets) and interlinked with a Male to Male leads.


I hope this means you are now no longer planning to put female connectors on both ends of the baseboards and will never ever decide to make a male to male lead.

Derek

PC, not in India, trip cancelled 1 hour before I left home. 6 days, 8 flights, 7 meetings, different city every night - proof there is a god.
Derek Russan, Eileens Emporium.

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Tim V
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Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby Tim V » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:57 pm

beakie wrote:Hiya Guys :)

Thanks all :D

This topic has moved nicely into another area which puzzles me to, so while we are here... . :?

I am building a branchline terminus 12ft long, I'm intending to go DCC and and anticipate about 4 power districts. Cant see more than 3/4 locos moving at the same time, if that. Was going to use 32/0.2 wire for the Power Busses for Traction only. Likely to go for Nce/Gaugemaster/ Digitrax etc which are around 5amps issh.
Regards Dave :(


I'm confused - four power districts on a layout 12 foot long, isn't that a bit OTT. There are only two on my big roundy roundy :!:

To connect boards such as you're talking about I've used 4mm banana plugs.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

beakie

Re: Heat Shrink Sleeving

Postby beakie » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:20 pm

Tim V wrote:
beakie wrote:Hiya Guys :)

Thanks all :D

This topic has moved nicely into another area which puzzles me to, so while we are here... . :?

I am building a branchline terminus 12ft long, I'm intending to go DCC and and anticipate about 4 power districts. Cant see more than 3/4 locos moving at the same time, if that. Was going to use 32/0.2 wire for the Power Busses for Traction only. Likely to go for Nce/Gaugemaster/ Digitrax etc which are around 5amps issh.
Regards Dave :(


I'm confused - four power districts on a layout 12 foot long, isn't that a bit OTT. There are only two on my big roundy roundy :!:

To connect boards such as you're talking about I've used 4mm banana plugs.


Ok Guys Throught u were here to help.................

Power Districts, maybe they should be sub districts, either way with Dcc we are trying to prevent total Shutdown of the system(may be we are talking N gauge Here) that was my understanding. Either way Tim, this advice business can get a bit tiresome. I'm sorry if this seems offensive, but to some extent I am subject to peoples individual opinion. Unfortunatly it was the wire size that concerns me more, rather than how the wiring is managed. sorry if I have missed something here... :?

Tim can you tell me what the ratings are for Banana Plugs, as this was part of my post. In interconnecting between Baseboards, on a 5amp DCC Power Bus, I guess I though this was a factor. I leave my self open to advice here.


derekrussan wrote:
beakie wrote:Guess I'm thinking about a Dcc Power Buss, interconnecting between baseboards.. Possible 5amp.
Was originally thinking of a Male/Female connection(all should the buss be terminated, at baseboard ends with Female sockets) and interlinked with a Male to Male leads.


I hope this means you are now no longer planning to put female connectors on both ends of the baseboards and will never ever decide to make a male to male lead.


So sorry Derek, totally thick..... :mrgreen:

I still dont understand, other than the relavence of accidently pluging 230v into a 12/16v system. I understand that if you have a Live, in the socket, you can't inadvertantly plug the Male into it unless it was intended. This just seems so oblivous, but that might suggest I havn't grasped it yet. So sorry .... surely I am misunderstanding the application to this rule. This Power buss is 12-16v Ac.

May be it would be easier if you explained how I Interconnect a Power Buss (5amp) between baseboards, as Tim said its only 12ft, but we have 3 boards. It can't be rocket science, surely..... :?
derekrussan wrote:[
PC, not in India, trip cancelled 1 hour before I left home. 6 days, 8 flights, 7 meetings, different city every night - proof there is a god.


So sorry about the trip to India, Beakie put the mochas on it.......

I hope u still have some patience.......... do you ;)
Regards

Dave :D


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