Power supply

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Power supply

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:16 am

davidb wrote:Terry wrote:
What we need is someone with a bit more knowledge than me, and who's electronic knowledge is a bit more up to date than mine, to write a series on basic electronics for Scalefour News. Now who would be prepared to do that?


Great idea, Terry. If anyone is prepared to do this, I am willing to work with them. We really do need some sort of 'Starter Pages' for electronics.

David


The MERG ( Model Electronic Railway Group) have published for members several articles on basic electronics,
e.g. Technical bulletins for:

Transistors, CMOS, preferred values for resistors and capacitors amongst others.
These are listed on the public website but only downloadable for members.
Also the newsletter has had several articles on basic electronics, notably a 10 part series in 2004-2008

In the interests of not reinventing the wheel may I suggest that the S4 committee approach Merg committee and request permission to publish for S4 members?

While most of Merg's work should rightly remain for members only it seems reasonable that these introductory articles should reach a wider audience.
I have copied this suggestion to Merg bosses.

Alan Turner
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Re: Power supply

Postby Alan Turner » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:23 am

Wouldn't it be easier, for those who are interested, to join MERG?

Alan

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David B
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Re: Power supply

Postby David B » Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:48 am

If my limited experience is anything to go by - and I haven't had much to do with MERG - those in the know (electronically) still go over the novices' heads. I have spoken with others at various times and many say the same that they really do need something spelling out in words of very few syllables.

A friend who knows marginally more than me about electronics has recently joined MERG and he says the same, that language and explanations have too high a reading age at times. This means that a lot of extra time is taken up trying to work out what things mean and of course, one cannot be sure one is right. It is also very frustrating.

It is because of the need for a very simple, basic, beginners' guide that I made my offer to work with someone as I will certainly ask the simpleton's questions.

David

Terry Bendall
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Re: Power supply

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:12 am

davidb wrote:If my limited experience is anything to go by - and I haven't had much to do with MERG - those in the know (electronically) still go over the novices' heads. I have spoken with others at various times and many say the same that they really do need something spelling out in words of very few syllables.


I would share David's view. MERG do some very interesting things and I have looked at their stand at exhibitions and chatted to those on the stand and have always had a very helpful response. I was a member of MERG for a few years but I found that the technical details of most of their devices was beyond me, and that is with some limited knowledge of the subject, so I did not continue with membership. I am sure that some of the basic information that MERG have would be useful, but for some people it does need to be very basic, which is not to insult anyone's intelligence, but it is very easy in electronics to loose people.

Terry Bendall

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Power supply

Postby Paul Townsend » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:15 am

Alan Turner wrote:Wouldn't it be easier, for those who are interested, to join MERG?

Alan


As others say here, Merg membership can be intimidating to the electric virgin.
Transplanting these basic info may attract some to join later. Perhaps a virgin could see the 10 part series and let us know if it is basic enough to avoid the need for reinvention. As an electronic professional. I wouldn't try to judge it!

However is someone is determined to write their own, don't let me discourage them, however they will need professional techie writer skills to avoid assumptions re preknowledge....it ain't that easy.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Power supply

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:50 am

Terry Bendall wrote:What we need is someone with a bit more knowledge than me, and who's electronic knowledge is a bit more up to date than mine, to write a series on basic electronics for Scalefour News. Now who would be prepared to do that?


Given all the electronics knowledge and expertise that some people are showing on the thread about lever frames and electrical/electronic interlocking, I would have though that one of more of these well informed people might be able to make a contribuition to an introductory series on electronics. ;) Any offers?

Terry Bendall

andrew jukes

Re: Power supply

Postby andrew jukes » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:45 pm

Not sure whether I count as one of ‘these well informed people’ but a brief summary of how I got to where I am (which is well short of being able to design circuits from scratch) might be helpful.

Way back, I knew I wanted track circuits and interlocking - things normal on most 20th century railways. In the early 1990s I got the Roger Amos book ‘Complete book of Model Railway Electronics’. This covers all sorts of projects and also has lots of basic stuff on components and theory. But the track circuit designs simply weren’t good enough - not reliable and not sufficiently sensitive. Through looking in Model Railroader, I then discovered the Bruce Chubb book ‘Build your own Universal Computer Interface’. This not only covers what it says on the cover but also contained an excellent track circuit design, which is the one I’m still using. It also led to my first attempt at a computer interlocking and progressive cab control (a completely scary hard-wired version of which was described in the Roger Amos book).

I then joined MERG. As with most groups, MERG has people with a variety of emphasis in their interests, and for some the electronics seems to be at least as important as the model railway. So if what you’re after is some particular functionality and are not really interested in circuit design, you pick and choose what to get interested in. I ended up choosing to use the RPC system (which I think in MERG terms is now rather old hat), got lots of help from Gordon Hopkins (the RPC designer) and produced a variety of my own circuits, all derived from other people’s designs. MERG members (especially Howard Amos) gave me a lot of good advice on overall system design - and the MERG documentation covers lots of the issues involved.

Somewhere along the way, I acquired a book by Michael Tooley ‘Electronic Circuits Handbook’ which has been very helpful at times - for example in understanding some of the issues involved in power supply design (on topic at last!) and using voltage regulators. About the only bit of real circuit design I’ve done was to use information from the book to make an operational amplifier link an RPC digital to analogue circuit to a DC throttle based on a variable voltage regulator......... and it works very well!

Based on my experience, I would encourage others to start from some idea of what particular result they want and then to use whatever sources exist to help achieve that result. You’ll be using stuff you don’t really understand some of the time but a fair bit of theory will get absorbed by stealth. For me, an introductory series on electronics might be another useful source but wouldn’t have been the best way into the subject.

Andrew

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Paul Townsend
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Re: Power supply

Postby Paul Townsend » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:04 pm

andrew jukes wrote: For me, an introductory series on electronics might be another useful source but wouldn’t have been the best way into the subject.

Andrew


Anyone who has done adult teaching will know that there are 3 basic methods of learning for bods on a training course...
Seeing
Hearing
Doing

We are all different and need some or all of these to get the points. An experienced trainer will use all 3 in any course so all trainees get something out of it.

Like Andrew I was self taught a very long while ago ( pre-transistors!!) but followed that with higher education and pro experience so know too much ;)

Self teaching is a powerful way as it enables you to just know the bits you need at the current time. Unfortunately it inevitably leaves gaps which cause trouble and possibly hazard.

None of the above mentions books! These are an excellent invention and the Amos ones on MR electrics are worth seeing. Google any terms you don't understand.

I do recommend Merg as a good source of info but recognise that some of us need to ration the number of societies we join, hence my suggestion to transplant some MERG stuff to S4 Socy.

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David B
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Re: Power supply

Postby David B » Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:28 pm

Paul Townsend wrote:
Anyone who has done adult teaching will know that there are 3 basic methods of learning for bods on a training course...
Seeing
Hearing
Doing


I recall something from my University days - was it Zen - that went: "I hear and I forget, I see and I remember, I do and I understand".

This is from Zen: "When one knows a little, trees are trees, water is water and mountains are mountains. When one knows more and becomes sophisticated, trees are no longer trees, water no longer water and mountains no longer mountains. When one understands, trees are again trees, water is water and mountains are mountains."

What the latter has to do with this topic, I don't know, but I like it.

David
Last edited by David B on Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

andrew jukes

Re: Power supply

Postby andrew jukes » Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:07 pm

I do actually agree with Paul's suggestion of seeing if access could be provided to a selection of MERG material - though deciding which of the long list of Technical Bulletins would be most useful would be an interesting task. I suppose what I really feel is that there is lots of information 'out there' and different approaches suit different people so you may have to try a variety of sources before finding something that clicks. But I don't have much enthusiasm for adding new material to what's already available.

One other thought. Paul mentions Googling and generally for electronics this has led me to Wikipedia and a very comprehensive explanation of whatever it is I need to know.

Andrew


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