Which controller?

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David B
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Which controller?

Postby David B » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:36 pm

I am getting to the stage where I need some sort of controller and I would appreciate advice.

I have a single H&M which is some 35 years old. I would like something hand held with some sort of momentum / brake control. Where would be a good place to buy a controller from?

I may go DCC, but this is not an immediate concern. I need something to run my test bed and, when I get to it, some track.

David

Philip Hall
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Re: Which controller?

Postby Philip Hall » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:05 pm

Many of the conversions I've done are quite happy on a hand held Gaugemaster feedback controller so that might be a good place to start. I think Kent Panel Controls do something similar.
For years my 'test' controllers have been an ancient, reduced feedback AMR and a Pentroller. Both of these, sadly, are no longer around as a new purchase.

Good luck!

Philip

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Which controller?

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:42 pm

David,

The Pictroller is said to be the" modern" version of the Pentroller http://www.malcolmsminiatures.co.uk/mr_ctrl.html.

Although they don't get a mention often, the L&NWRS were trying them out on Clarendon and I have heard a couple of other good reports of them.

Jol

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Paul Willis
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Re: Which controller?

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Mar 15, 2011 10:50 pm

davidb wrote:I am getting to the stage where I need some sort of controller and I would appreciate advice.

I have a single H&M which is some 35 years old. I would like something hand held with some sort of momentum / brake control. Where would be a good place to buy a controller from?

I may go DCC, but this is not an immediate concern. I need something to run my test bed and, when I get to it, some track.


I certainly don't want to thread-hijack, but as this seems a useful place to raise the question, I have a different one about controllers :-)

Last weekend, at Missenden, Tim Watson and I were de-bugging the chassis of my Y14. Well, in reality, he was doing the de-bugging, and I was watching and learning (lots!).

I had it running on the Bachrus rolling road, powered by a handheld Pentroller. No problem here, I would have thought, but Tim pointed out to me something that I hadn't realised.

The Pentroller, like many others, is a feedback controller. Every time the chassis got to a tight spot, it gave a hefty dose of amps to overcome it, and keep things moving. Thus, the true state of the problems was being masked by the controller taking control, so to speak...

We got there eventually (if you're interested, first by running it as one 0-4-0, then the second 0-4-0, then putting it all together...) but Tim suggested a different type of controller for workbench testing use. basically, some form of smooth 12v DC thing, without any sophisticated electronics and delivering as pure a signal as possible.

Not really knowing what I'm looking for, could anyone suggest a suitable make/model? Or failing that, a few components from Maplin to make a home-brewed one?

And no, DCC is not one of the available options ;-)

Flymo
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Which controller?

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:06 pm

If you just want a plain vanilla controller, no pulsing or anything they are very simple, do you already have a transformer or do you want everything back to the mains plug? I have the circuits but fairly old so just need to check component availability or equivalents.
Keith
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Paul Willis
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Re: Which controller?

Postby Paul Willis » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:26 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:If you just want a plain vanilla controller, no pulsing or anything they are very simple, do you already have a transformer or do you want everything back to the mains plug? I have the circuits but fairly old so just need to check component availability or equivalents.


Hi Keith,

I built myself a natty little transformer box a few years ago. It has 2 x 16v AC output and 1 x 24 v DC output. I normally run the Pentroller off one of the 16v outputs. However it's all banana-plugged up so I can swap controllers on and off easily.

So yes, just a plain vanilla controller.

Cheers
Flymo
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www.5522models.co.uk

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Tim V
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Re: Which controller?

Postby Tim V » Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:35 pm

I use an old powermaster on the workbench, apart from that I wouldn't bother with anything more sophisticated.

I also use a Sprog for DCC testing in my work room.
Tim V
(Not all railways in Somerset went to Dorset)

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Re: Which controller?

Postby Paul Willis » Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:22 am

Tim V wrote:I use an old powermaster on the workbench, apart from that I wouldn't bother with anything more sophisticated.


Hi Tim,

It's the "old" that worries me... I don't believe that the H+M Powermaster is available new any more. A quick google suggests that it only comes up on Ebay.

Rather than haunt that place (which i do enough anyway...) I was after a model that I can buy, or make, new. I have a Maplin three minutes walk from work, so I'm not particularly fussed about the need to get components to make something home-brewed.

Cheers
Flymo
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frizby

Re: Which controller?

Postby frizby » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:37 am

Both Bachmann and Hornby prouce DC controllers

http://www.bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php ... height=278
http://www.hornby.com/power-and-accessories-90/r8250/

Looking at them I think I'd rather have the 'old' H&M off ebay :D

Andy

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Which controller?

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:09 am

So yes, just a plain vanilla controller.

OK give me a few days and I'll have the parts list and circuit sorted. What is the amp rating of your transformers? And do they have built in cutouts?
Keith
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Keith
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John Bateson
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Re: Which controller?

Postby John Bateson » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:46 am

There was a short review of the 'Pictroller' in SN 169 Page 37 with pointers to the web sites and instructions. Much more than a plain vanilla controller I know but would save all the DIY hassle.
It has also had good comments on RMWEB.
Needs the usual 15VAC

John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...

nigelcliffe
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Re: Which controller?

Postby nigelcliffe » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:07 am

Flymo748 wrote:Last weekend, at Missenden, Tim Watson and I were de-bugging the chassis of my Y14. Well, in reality, he was doing the de-bugging, and I was watching and learning (lots!).

I had it running on the Bachrus rolling road, powered by a handheld Pentroller. No problem here, I would have thought, but Tim pointed out to me something that I hadn't realised.

The Pentroller, like many others, is a feedback controller. Every time the chassis got to a tight spot, it gave a hefty dose of amps to overcome it, and keep things moving. Thus, the true state of the problems was being masked by the controller taking control, so to speak...



I've debugged chassis for years (in 2mm and 4mm) with a Pentroller. But I do have an analogue ammeter on the output, and that ameter can have its sensitivity switched. Thus, I see the current swings in tight spots. By positioning the meter where I can see it at the same time as watching the loco, I can see the tight spot on the meter and match it to a position in the chassis (usually rods tight at one of the quarter positions, or wheels inconsistently quartered). Digital meters do not, in my experience, move fast enough to make these sorts of judgements.

I am actually slightly more concerned about rolling roads. Those I've seen in use don't seem to quite replicate running on rail. So, a rolling road might be OK for some testing, but I would still want to move to running up/down a length of plain line and inspecting both sides very carefully.



- Nigel

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Which controller?

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:43 am

Getting back to David's original enquiry, he asked about controllers with momentum/braking. The orignal Pentroller "two knob" version had that, which is replicated in the Pictroller. The hand held Pentroller didn't have M/B but the hand held version of the Pictroller does.

We use Pentrollers on London Road for the main control panel, with Modelex controllers for the fiddle yard and the "maintenance and cleaning depot". I'm not sure if these have feed back (the Modelex website isn't very forthcoming), but they do work well. They were purchased as backups for the Pentrollers on the advice of a certain R Jackson who has a large train set in Lincolnshire.

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iak
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Re: Which controller?

Postby iak » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:15 pm

Well I'm using a Pentroller for my fettling about and very nice it is too.
Mind, it is connected to an auld Hornby early '70'S vintage 905 transformer/controller :shock:
Yes is still works and passed an earth test recently - it even gets to run stuff if I want to check a recent RTR purchase...
Can I add that the Pictroller mentioned does appear decent having seen one in use.
Is it me or is DCC tending to blank out this area of control a shade :?:
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nigelcliffe
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Re: Which controller?

Postby nigelcliffe » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:40 pm

iak wrote:Is it me or is DCC tending to blank out this area of control a shade :?:


Clearly yes, the market for analogue controllers is shrinking rapidly.
I'm a DCC user, the level of control on a well setup quality DCC chip exceeds what I get on Pentrollers and their ilk. But, that's perhaps for a different thread.

I still use analogue controllers for testing locos; no point trying to use DCC until all mechanical and pickup issues are resolved.


- Nigel (back to writing the JMRI/DecoderPro files for a couple of new DCC decoders...)

martin goodall
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Re: Which controller?

Postby martin goodall » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:10 pm

Philip Hall wrote:I think Kent Panel Controls do something similar.


I was under the impression that Kent Panel Controls ceased trading following the death of the proprietor in 2008. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

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Russ Elliott
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Re: Which controller?

Postby Russ Elliott » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:45 pm

martin goodall wrote:I was under the impression that Kent Panel Controls ceased trading following the death of the proprietor in 2008. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

That is correct.

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Re: Which controller?

Postby martin goodall » Wed Mar 16, 2011 5:51 pm

I have a particular interest in this thread, as my hand-held Pentroller has recently developed a fault, and Stewart Hine (so far as I am aware) is no longer offering a servicing facility. So it may be 'curtains' for what has proved to be a very smooth and reliable controller.

Which means that I shall have to start looking for a replacement. I have not really looked into the 'Pictroller' in any detail yet, but will investigate this. [Any comments from actual users would be extremely helpful.] Otherwise, Gaugemaster seems to be the only other choice (unless someone can offer other suggestions?)

I am looking for a hand-held controller. I still have the panel-mounted version of the Pentroller which remains in use, but somehow it doesn't seem to suit the locos quite so well. Don't know why that should be.

I am only aware of one Gaugemaster hand-held controller, which I think is called the 'Combi' (currently out of stock, but has been re-ordered by the supplier).

Of course, the ideal would be on-board battery power, controlled by the Red Arrow infra-red system, but the batteries are still too big to go in 4mm tank locos. Red Arrow is now supplied by Micromotive, but is due to get its own website (no doubt to avoid confusion with the equipment which Micromotive also supplies for controlling train sets built to 304.5mm to the foot scale, such as the London Underground).

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Tim V
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Re: Which controller?

Postby Tim V » Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:12 pm

Once I costed up repairing/replacing my Pentrollers, there was a marginal difference in upgrading to DCC, I've never looked back.

To return to the OPs question, a simple DC controller will do, I've built the one back in MRJ 11 (I think it was), around a voltage controller chip. All components came from Maplins.
Tim V
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Re: Which controller?

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:44 pm

OK give me a few days and I'll have the parts list and circuit sorted. What is the amp rating of your transformers? And do they have built in cutouts?
Keith

No need to bother answering that, my circuit was designed to give 3 Amps which is why I asked as it would need a few component resizes if the transformer is not man enough for that.
But seeing Tim's post
I've built the one back in MRJ 11 (I think it was), around a voltage controller chip. All components came from Maplins.
i looked that one up and it should be perfect for your needs. Don't bother with the Relco or the meters then it will fit on about 2 square inches of stripboard. You could order in the bits from Rapid but they would not be enough to get free delivery so you may as well use Maplin if they have them in stock.
Without the voltmeter I would just add an LED, in series with a 1K resistor, across the output where the voltmeter is shown, then you know its working.

Tim was right that its MRJ 11, pages 269 and 270, by Chris Langdon (of Missenden). I expect you have a copy, if not I can scan it for you.
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Keith
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Tim V
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Re: Which controller?

Postby Tim V » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:33 pm

There was a follow up circuit for a current limiter, I'm sure you could produce something as well Keith.
Tim V
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Paul Willis
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Re: Which controller?

Postby Paul Willis » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:35 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:i looked that one up and it should be perfect for your needs. Don't bother with the Relco or the meters then it will fit on about 2 square inches of stripboard. You could order in the bits from Rapid but they would not be enough to get free delivery so you may as well use Maplin if they have them in stock.
Without the voltmeter I would just add an LED, in series with a 1K resistor, across the output where the voltmeter is shown, then you know its working.

Tim was right that its MRJ 11, pages 269 and 270, by Chris Langdon (of Missenden). I expect you have a copy, if not I can scan it for you.


Thanks Keith, and Tim, for the suggestion. I do indeed have the relevant MRJ at home.

I'm in the train on the way home after a Committee meeting (of which I'm sure you can read about in a forthcoming Chairman's Doghouse) but I'll dig the issue out when I get home. And then it may well be a trip around to Maplin tomorrow lunchtime.

Thanks again for the help, and I'll hand the thread back to the original question... To which my answer would be an ECM Rambler, but again you have to haunt Ebay for one of those.

Cheers
Flymo
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Which controller?

Postby grovenor-2685 » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:45 pm

There was a follow up circuit for a current limiter, I'm sure you could produce something as well Keith.

Seems a bit unnecessary, the LM317 is overcurrent protected anyway.
Cheers
Keith
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Keith
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martin goodall
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Re: Which controller?

Postby martin goodall » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:00 am

[quote="my answer would be an ECM Rambler, but again you have to haunt Ebay for one of those.

Cheers
Flymo[/quote]

This is the problem we all seem to be facing nowadays - ECM = out of production, AMR = out of production, KPC = out of prodcution, Pentrollers = out of production.

The AMR hand-held controller used to be a very reliable controller for my "Crichel Down" layout, but on getting it out recently after a long period of disuse, I found that the reversing switch was no longer working, and the running (with RTR motors) seemed very rough, compared with the Pentroller.

I also have a Hammant & Morgan 'Safety Minor' which still provides the 16v AC supply for the layout, plus 12v DC for electro-magnets, etc. but the resistance mat is worn, so I no longer use it as a controller.

It seems to me that old and/or second-hand units are unlikely to be the answer (whether bought on e-bay or excavated from your personal junk heap). But the choice of current products seems to be fairly limited.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Which controller?

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:39 pm

Martin,

although those suppliers have ceased production, Modelex make a good unit, Pictroller has arrived on the scene, the KPC (or is it KCP?) has been re-introduced by All Components. Gaugemaster and Morley both produce "traditional" boxed controller/PSUs. There may also be others, so perhaps things aren't to bleak for those of us that stick to DC.

I often hear proponents of DCC sing it's praises, although I expect it has it's downsides too. If I were starting out again I would consider DCC, but I'm too far down the road with my layout and locos (and satisfied with their performance) to want to change at present.

Jol


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