whats the state of the art in baseboards

junctionmad

whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby junctionmad » Wed Oct 05, 2016 8:51 pm

Just about to cut a lot of wood


Can I ask what people now regard as state of the art baseboard constriction for an fully open plan baseboard, i.e. what I want is a grid that can take any manner of full or partial track bed plywood raised above on on the cross members .

I recently completed a small trial of 4mm ply epoxied to 100mm extruded 300 Kpsa polystyrene foam, this produced an extremely rigid board , but I had trouble fitting turnout operating units through 100 mm of foam, as it resulted in considerable lost motion

regards

dave

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby Terry Bendall » Thu Oct 06, 2016 7:03 am

junctionmad wrote:Can I ask what people now regard as state of the art baseboard


Probably as many different views as the number of people who respond. :D It also depends on what size of boards you are contemplating. You have found one disadvantage of using thick foam which others may have solved. My view is birch plywood every time but that is not state of the art. :) However it works.

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby Knuckles » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:09 am

Might aswell pipe in as I'm soon to spend on baseboard wood and am unsure on things myself.

I'm convinced 9mm minimum ply' is the way to go but what is putting me off is every shop I see it in makes it obvious they are all bent as a bottle of chips so I am put off. I've had enough of bananna base boards and fear making similar mistakes as before.

Unsire if B&Q, Wickes et al are the way to go or if a timber merchant would provide straighter goods.

This mini P4 layout I have been crawling on used 6mm ply' and it was too bendy so 9mm or 12 I gather is more popular. 12 would weigh a bomb though.

Thinking of using the same thickness top board ply as also the side frame construction of about 5" depth with internal chocks for rigidity. I gather this method is better for less warpage...apparently. Also it would provide some scenery depth and protection for certain shelled animals who are employed in the turnout buisness.
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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby Re6/6 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:15 am

Terry Bendall wrote:Probably as many different views as the number of people who respond. : Terry Bendall


Quite so Terry.

My preferred method is basically what you've described in your test piece. I built boards from 60mm thick 'polyfoam' framed with 100mm deep 4mm ply and essentially with 'W' or diagonal bracing all held together with non-solvent grab adhesive (Gripfill) over six years ago and stored in an outside garage and they show no signs of any warping.

All pointwork assemblies, i.e. track, Exacto baseplate with Tortoise and 6mm ply base are assembled and tested on the bench and then fitted to the boards which have had a generous sized square holes cut for the Tortoises.

004a.jpg
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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby Armchair Modeller » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:20 am

State of the art is surely laser cut ply?

I tried foam but was not impressed overall. Firstly, it is very noisy - trains really roar as they cross it. It also creates lots of complications with attaching things like point motors etc. Maybe OK for a very simple layout, but a real headache for a complex one. Building a layout is lots of hassle anyway, so why complicate things even further? You don't need sophisticated adhesives for ply/foam bonds, by the way. I used PVA, which worked very well.

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby steve howe » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:59 am

I agree that ply is the simplest material to use, but as Terry says getting good quality stuff is not always easy. The big tin sheds brands can vary enormously, better to go to a decent wood merchant and select your own. I would also say that the diagonal bracing is pretty essential; I have built baseboards with both 6 & 9mm ply frames and tops, and found even on quite narrow baseboards (400mm) that some warping can occur.

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby Re6/6 » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:46 pm

I can't agree. Complicate things?.... The construction is so quick and the end product is very robust. A typical 1200mm x 600mm baseboard takes me about two hours to make with an two day glue drying period. The ply trackbed profiles take a little longer, less if larger areas of ply are used where the trackwork is a little more complicated.

No complications if the point motors are pre-mounted on the track bed before fixing but leaving good clearance in the foam around the motor for maintenance.

Regarding glues, good quality PVA is usable but I prefer non-solvent grip adhesive (which isn't sophisticated and is used often in the building industry) at £3.50 for 350ml and a one-off purchase of an applicator gun at £3.50. It also has a good gap-filling property.

I don't know about noise as I've only ever run on them at exhibitions where noise isn't really a factor.

The other big plus for me in my advancing years is the lightness of the things. I first saw this method used on 'Pempoul' years ago and if it was good enough for Gordon then it will always be good enough for me!

But hey, as Terry had mentioned, there will be many different methods. Everyone will use their own, l can only say what suits me.

If quality Birch ply is needed then it will have to be sought out. Down here in Devon we are blessed with a firm called 'Timber Cut' in Exeter which will cut to order though not cheap. It is best used fairly quickly as l bought some cut-to-order birch ply and stored the pieces but they were unusable due to warping after six months.

I prefer to use BS1088 6mm marine ply (not the most expensive grade) for the track beds which is as good as l need for stability. This grade stands up to around seven years when l use it on my boat floor which is obviously subject to constant wetness.
John

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby barhamd » Thu Oct 06, 2016 12:58 pm

I've just built the first two baseboards for my new scalefour empire http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/186/entry-18176-first-2-baseboards-assembled/. 6mm laser cut ply, ply came from SLEC http://www.slecuk.com/

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby Tim V » Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:14 pm

2"x1" under softboard tops used to be state of the art.

Burnham uses chipboard tops, it hasn't warped but it's very heavy.

Whatever, the baseboards are there the longest, extra time and money spent will be rewarded.
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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:42 pm

I am going with Steve Hall's idea of Contiboard (which he used in his storage yards) for the tops of my new layout. It's dead flat, has a lovely clean top surface and takes pins reasonably. I know it's heavy, but this layout is not going anywhere, and a carpenter friend is going to produce some dead straight longitudinal ply beams for it to sit on. I admit this is a bit unusual, but the shelf for the layout is also a major part of the storage arrangements in the building, and so the layout will be designed around what will fit on the boards rather than the conventional 'design layout then build boards' approach.

I am also eschewing convention in that everything, wiring, turnout controls etc will be on top of the boards; nothing below at all. This is partly for easy access to the storage beneath, but also because I did not want to make the boards moveable (much) and my days of crawling underneath boards with a soldering iron and screwdriver are long gone. The most important thing about any boards is that the trackbed is dead flat and I think this is an economical way to achieve this. Portable lines need to be light of course!

Philip

junctionmad

Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby junctionmad » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:54 pm

Personally I would like a structure that doesn't require any ply top to be rigid allowing me complete flexibility in whate the track boards are then placed

Dave

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby CDGFife » Thu Oct 06, 2016 9:44 pm

Here's how I do mine with 4mm Birch ply. Next lot will be Laser cut rather than hand cut, but the design will be the same. The rectangles marked on the cross boards are the cut outs for the 9mm ply track bed. Supported in this manner at 300mm centres it's been fine.

CSM Board3.jpg

Relatively easy access to the underside and the ability to sculpt the remaining cross boards to give contours for the landform like this:

CS-15-7-7.jpg

This board weighs just over 6Kg with scenery, supported my weight across the 4' span (before the scenery was added!) and has been absolutely rigid. The advantage of 4mm Birch ply is that even if it's not flat when you get it, if you build on a flat plate (I use an old flush door) the baseboard will remain straight once glued up.

Cheers

Chris
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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby Winander » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:11 am

I am going to go along the same lines as Balcome Viaduct, but using some blue stuff I obtained ex-MOD probably 10 years ago. It is inert and has been stored in my loft and subject to large temperature variations and is as flat as when I got it. Good to hear that Gripfill sticks to it !

The aspect that concerns me is noise and I am surprised to hear that it is very noisy. As I want to avoid a flat landscape I may experiment with an ordinary expanded polystyrene trackbed base in the hope that helps.

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby Terry Bendall » Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:51 am

steve howe wrote:I agree that ply is the simplest material to use, but as Terry says getting good quality stuff is not always easy.


In my view plywood is the best material but it should be birch plywood which is not usually available in the average DIY store. As others have said you need to seek out a proper timber merchant. They still exist and can be found in most large towns. Some people may find such places a bit intimidating if you are not familiar with the terminology of the timber trade but most will try to be helpful. 10mm thick is ok for smaller boards but I standardise on 12mm thick. If you are going to use ideas such as Chris showed then 4mm or 6mm is better. Birch plywood is more expensive than ply made from other timbers but it is better to work with and is a more superior product.

Birch plywood is normally available in sheets measuring 2440mm x 1220mm or 8 ft x 4ft in old money. Timber yards will normally do one cut free of charge which is helpful for getting it home but after that will probably charge 50 pence per cut. If you get them to cut all the parts to size that can be quite expensive but it helps if you feel your skill level is not up to scratch.

For those who are contemplating building their own boards my series on building baseboards that appear in the News from 170 - 177 may be useful.

Armchair Modeller wrote:State of the art is surely laser cut ply?


In terms of getting the various parts cut, then yes. The methods used to put the parts together does not really change from doing the same thing with parts cut by hand although if you use some laser cut boards such as those sold by Tim Horn, then the joints are cut as well which makes things easier.

Terry Bendall

junctionmad

Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby junctionmad » Fri Oct 07, 2016 8:05 am

CDGFife wrote:Here's how I do mine with 4mm Birch ply. Next lot will be Laser cut rather than hand cut, but the design will be the same. The rectangles marked on the cross boards are the cut outs for the 9mm ply track bed. Supported in this manner at 300mm centres it's been fine.

CSM Board3.jpg
Relatively easy access to the underside and the ability to sculpt the remaining cross boards to give contours for the landform like this:

CS-15-7-7.jpg
This board weighs just over 6Kg with scenery, supported my weight across the 4' span (before the scenery was added!) and has been absolutely rigid. The advantage of 4mm Birch ply is that even if it's not flat when you get it, if you build on a flat plate (I use an old flush door) the baseboard will remain straight once glued up.

Cheers

Chris


Very very interesting , have you any more photos or a more detailed description

Dave

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby CDGFife » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:41 am

Dave,

I'm a little busy today but will try and upload a pic of the 3d CAD drawings for Cadhays 1220x750 baseboards at some point in the next 24 hours. This will give you the idea.

My local friendly laser cutting business does the cutting but to echo what Terry has said, I found that most laser cutting firms will need Birch ply as the (cheaper!) far eastern ply tends to be WBP (trade term meaning water and boil proof glue is used in the laminating process) which apparently makes an awful mess of the cutting process!

Cheers

CDG

junctionmad

Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby junctionmad » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:54 am

CDGFife wrote:Dave,

I'm a little busy today but will try and upload a pic of the 3d CAD drawings for Cadhays 1220x750 baseboards at some point in the next 24 hours. This will give you the idea.

My local friendly laser cutting business does the cutting but to echo what Terry has said, I found that most laser cutting firms will need Birch ply as the (cheaper!) far eastern ply tends to be WBP (trade term meaning water and boil proof glue is used in the laminating process) which apparently makes an awful mess of the cutting process!

Cheers

CDG



I would be most grateful for more detail , ( whenever you have the time ) and maybe I could use your local laser cutting service , I presume each 300mm wide " baseboard " module bolts together or is somehow dovetailed together ?

I like the idea of producing it , as I understand it , in 300mm modules that are fitted to each other , my only concern would be how to stop the modules moving relative to each other . The laser produced version , I presume will have dovetail style assembly ?

I can get 4mm eastern european birch ply ( not WBP) here in Ireland , for 16 euros a sheet, so I can even make hand one up quite cheaply , Laser cutting services with a reasonable capacity are thin on the ground in ireland, but I have found one machine cable of 1200mm by 900mm, which might be able to cut 4mm. failing that , once I work the bugs out of any design , I could get it all cut in the UK .I need about 50 linear feet of 3 foot ( in some place 2 foot ) wide baseboard , so I would like to come up with a modular design

Dave

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby Alan Turner » Fri Oct 07, 2016 12:39 pm

junctionmad wrote:
CDGFife wrote:Dave,

I'm a little busy today but will try and upload a pic of the 3d CAD drawings for Cadhays 1220x750 baseboards at some point in the next 24 hours. This will give you the idea.

My local friendly laser cutting business does the cutting but to echo what Terry has said, I found that most laser cutting firms will need Birch ply as the (cheaper!) far eastern ply tends to be WBP (trade term meaning water and boil proof glue is used in the laminating process) which apparently makes an awful mess of the cutting process!

Cheers

CDG



I would be most grateful for more detail , ( whenever you have the time ) and maybe I could use your local laser cutting service , I presume each 300mm wide " baseboard " module bolts together or is somehow dovetailed together ?

I like the idea of producing it , as I understand it , in 300mm modules that are fitted to each other , my only concern would be how to stop the modules moving relative to each other . The laser produced version , I presume will have dovetail style assembly ?

I can get 4mm eastern european birch ply ( not WBP) here in Ireland , for 16 euros a sheet, so I can even make hand one up quite cheaply , Laser cutting services with a reasonable capacity are thin on the ground in ireland, but I have found one machine cable of 1200mm by 900mm, which might be able to cut 4mm. failing that , once I work the bugs out of any design , I could get it all cut in the UK .I need about 50 linear feet of 3 foot ( in some place 2 foot ) wide baseboard , so I would like to come up with a modular design

Dave


alternatively, order what you want from Grainge and Hodder: http://www.graingeandhodder.co.uk/

regards

Alan

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby CDGFife » Fri Oct 07, 2016 6:34 pm

Apologies my post was not clear. The baseboard shown was a one piece 1220x750 board that weighed in at 6Kg. The monocoque design makes it really stable. The attached pdf should show what the 1200mmx600mm ones look like from top and underneath.

1200x600ST_RevA_3D-1.pdf


The 1200x600 can be made from 2no 8'x4' sheets of ply and some PVA. The only additional timber required is for the track bed itself- I use 9mm ply.

Cheers

Chris
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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby hughesp87 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:27 am

I may be a bit late in joining this debate - apologies for that - but I've been prompted by a visit to our local CHEAG meeting yesterday evening, when I took one of my laser cut baseboards for the new p87 project along. It seemed to generate some interest, so I thought I might relate all to a wider audience.

My problem is that I know what I want to build, and have planned it in some considerable detail with the aid of my trusty CAD package, but I just can't accommodate that size of layout in the workshop and would therefore find it difficult to work on it during the early stages of track construction and wiring. Add to that the fact that the layout comprises two baseboards with significant scenic areas to the front and rear of the track (see drawing attached), and that compounds the problem as far as getting the track laid and fettled is concerned.

I pondered on this for quite some time, and was at one point close to abandoning the project until I remembered that worthy tome on layout design from our immediate past president, in which he advocates the use of 'jigsaw pieces' to overcome problems of unsightly baseboard joints. The idea doesn't appear to have caught on that well, with the notable exception of Vincent de Bode's Flintfield. In some ways you have to have the benefit of seeing Vincent and his team erect the layout to appreciate the simplicity and advantages of the concept.

So my plan is now to construct a series of smaller and narrower jigsaw pieces to accommodate all the trackwork for the new layout, which incidentally can be accommodated with ease along one wall of the workshop, allowing me to complete rigorous testing of the track as its built and laid. The shapes of the jigsaw pieces are dictated by the natural boundaries on either side of the track, basically a quay wall at the front and a street at the back. The shapes are easily lifted from the CAD drawing, and laser cutting makes the shaping and assembly of the various parts a doddle. In due course, once I've reached a stage when I need to work on the scenery, I can build the baseboard frames to the proper size and it will be a simple process to mount the track jigsaw pieces permanently on the top. The scenic jigsaw can then be assembled around it.

For a simple set of rectangular baseboards, going through the performance of producing the CAD drawing for laser cutting seems to offer little in the way of time saving. Of course you can use one of the excellent products now on the market, but that might limit your ambitions a little.

Using laser cut ply to produce the more complex shapes for jigsaw pieces is however a much more practical, accurate and time-saving proposition, and in my case it allows me to progress a project that I wouldn't normally be able to accommodate.

Hopefully the attached pictures will help to explain the problem and the solution.

Regards,

Geraint
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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby Le Corbusier » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:13 am

hughesp87 wrote:I may be a bit late in joining this debate - apologies for that - but I've been prompted by a visit to our local CHEAG meeting yesterday evening, when I took one of my laser cut baseboards for the new p87 project along. It seemed to generate some interest, so I thought I might relate all to a wider audience.

My problem is that I know what I want to build, and have planned it in some considerable detail with the aid of my trusty CAD package, but I just can't accommodate that size of layout in the workshop and would therefore find it difficult to work on it during the early stages of track construction and wiring. Add to that the fact that the layout comprises two baseboards with significant scenic areas to the front and rear of the track (see drawing attached), and that compounds the problem as far as getting the track laid and fettled is concerned.

I pondered on this for quite some time, and was at one point close to abandoning the project until I remembered that worthy tome on layout design from our immediate past president, in which he advocates the use of 'jigsaw pieces' to overcome problems of unsightly baseboard joints. The idea doesn't appear to have caught on that well, with the notable exception of Vincent de Bode's Flintfield. In some ways you have to have the benefit of seeing Vincent and his team erect the layout to appreciate the simplicity and advantages of the concept.

So my plan is now to construct a series of smaller and narrower jigsaw pieces to accommodate all the trackwork for the new layout, which incidentally can be accommodated with ease along one wall of the workshop, allowing me to complete rigorous testing of the track as its built and laid. The shapes of the jigsaw pieces are dictated by the natural boundaries on either side of the track, basically a quay wall at the front and a street at the back. The shapes are easily lifted from the CAD drawing, and laser cutting makes the shaping and assembly of the various parts a doddle. In due course, once I've reached a stage when I need to work on the scenery, I can build the baseboard frames to the proper size and it will be a simple process to mount the track jigsaw pieces permanently on the top. The scenic jigsaw can then be assembled around it.

For a simple set of rectangular baseboards, going through the performance of producing the CAD drawing for laser cutting seems to offer little in the way of time saving. Of course you can use one of the excellent products now on the market, but that might limit your ambitions a little.

Using laser cut ply to produce the more complex shapes for jigsaw pieces is however a much more practical, accurate and time-saving proposition, and in my case it allows me to progress a project that I wouldn't normally be able to accommodate.

Hopefully the attached pictures will help to explain the problem and the solution.

Regards,

Geraint


Geraint

I would really appreciate a little more explanation about this ... not sure I fully understand, but it looks really interesting. Do you have more photos of what you actually did. Could we have a look at the CAD work? How easy would it be to accommodate change in landscape levels .... say for a track bed running along the middle of a hill slope contouring?

Regards

Tim
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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby hughesp87 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:55 pm

Tim,

I think the best I can do is to refer you to two pages of Iain Rice's book "An Approach to Model Railway Layout Design - Finescale in Small Spaces", (pdf attached), which explains the principles. You will see that Iain is advocating three different approaches - (1) to build a jigsaw piece across a baseboard joint to hide the conspicuous 'fault line' that you often see on layouts; (2) to create a jigsaw-shaped baseboard joint to achieve the same effect; and (3) to create a layout with a series of jigsaw panels mounted on a sub-base.

What I am doing is to use approach 3, but constructing the jigsaw pieces first, potentially a long time before I get round to the sub-base and to the other jigsaw pieces for scenery and buildings.

The use of laser-cutting helps to ensure the accuracy of manufacture of the jigsaw pieces. The design is quite straightforward on CAD. In my case the important step is to copy the outline shape of the piece from the overall layout drawing. That done, the framework that supports it is easy to design. In my case the sides and ends are also cut from 6mm ply, all 60mm deep in section, and with lightening holes cut out at various points in the carcass. It also pays at this stage to consider what you will want to mount under the baseboards in terms of turnout motors, uncoupling magnets, and in my case mechanisms for a turntable and a level crossing. You can then plot the location of the dividers and cross braces to miss these. I've not put any diagonal bracing on these boards, as the sub-base will, in time, provide all the torsional robustness needed. However the pieces produced to date have all proved to be very stable once glued together. The 'kit' uses a simple tab and slot design, and assembly uses nothing more than glue and clamps.

You asked about scenic profiles. In my case I have no need of them, because the profile is level either side of the track. However, if you were looking to create scenic jigsaw pieces to construct a line running along a hillside ledge, it would be a simple matter of creating the appropriate vertical profile in the CAD drawing and then copying that across to the next drawing for the scenic piece. That's one of the big advantages of using CAD and laser cutting.

I've also attached a pdf of the cutting plan for one of the jigsaw pieces, so you can see how it is communicated to the cutter. The different colours indicate the order of cut - surface marks first, then holes within the parts, and finally cutting the outside shapes of the parts themselves.

Hope this helps. Please PM me if you need any more information.

Regards,

Geraint
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junctionmad

Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby junctionmad » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:18 pm

I think the laser cut modular baseboard is a great idea , where sections can be removed to work on etc. It's what I'm working towards myself.

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby LesGros » Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:55 am

I am taking a similar approach, with lift-off sections for access to wiring, and electronic modules, whilst avoiding the need to crawl underneath.

It is a well established concept for the static layout, and clearly described in Ian Rice's books on layout design. The reverend Peter Denny employed the technique on his Buckingham Central System, now in the care of Tony Gee.

I found this Utube clip which is mostly about operation. it is not possible to identify lift-off sections in the clips, a tribute to the Reverend's skill in concealing joints.
Enjoy...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/cornwall/hi ... 700293.stm

There is no doubt that the accuracy of laser cutting is advantageous, for those with a large enough budget to avoid the perils of the Jig-saw.
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never made anything useful

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Re: whats the state of the art in baseboards

Postby andrewnummelin » Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:09 am

Don't do what I did!

Do plan extra carefully, if possible do a 3D drawing and include all the under baseboard bits including your hand.

To make a simple layout more interesting I thought that the jigsaw concept would allow the easy replacement of a bit to show different periods - in my case the addition of a siding for a railcar shed. So I drew the plan with a crossover & point on one piece of a jigsaw, designed and made retractable alignment dowels and captive bolts and made sure the baseboard edge was clear of tiebars and signal posts. All fine so far...

But then I found that in one place that although there was room for a point motor there was no room to get my hand in to screw it to the underside of the board!
DSC03751.JPG


And in another place found a baseboard member where a signal servo had to go (I'd intended to use mechanical operation but later decided on servos).
DSC03748.JPG


And in another found that the baseboard joint bits (including hand) got in the way of a point motor, so I ended with a bodged installation.
DSC03750.JPG


And final indignity (so far),
DSC03753.JPG

guess where the point rodding should run. Yes, right along the join between two bits of the jigsaw!


Would I use a jigsaw design again? Yes, but I'd do a lot more planning in advance!
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