Precision Maroon

[barhamd]

I sprayed my Comet Thompson full brake last night using Precision Paints P108 B.R. Maroon (dull) which I thought would be right for a NPCS in the late 50's. It seems very dark and nothing like any of the other maroons on other RTR stock. I have other BR Crimson (precision P116) and even an ancient Gloy authentic railway colour R232 coaching stock crimsons but I thought 'Crimson' was the 'blood' from 'blood and custard' and not the same as the all-over maroon?

Do I take it off and start again? If so any recommendations on colour? any words of encourage ?

The roof hasn't been painted and is not attached so don't don't judge on that please.

Compared with a Bachmann GUV

aIMG_0031.jpg

Compared with a Hornby Thompson Composite

aIMG_0032.jpg

At least the bogies came out nicely.

aIMG_0034.jpg

thanks
David

[Noel]

I thought 'Crimson' was the 'blood' from 'blood and custard' and not the same as the all-over maroon?

I would agree with you, although I tend to call the earlier colour Carmine, but that's just what I learned as a child. Confusion can occur as the later BR maroon was supposed to match the former LMS colour originally known as Crimson Lake, although the late LMS name for it was also Maroon. Both colours were at least partially translucent, so the undercoat affected the outcome, and degraded over time as red pigments in that era were not particularly stable.

So far as your photos are concerned it is impossible to be dogmatic, as there may be distortion of the colours by both the camera and the screen display, but having said that my feeling is that the Bachmann colour is reasonable for Maroon, and the colour of the Thompson coach is much nearer Crimson than Maroon, but not really quite bright enough for the former. The BG appears to me as being purple rather than anything BR would have recognised; I would not use that tin again. I'm afraid I can't help much on alternative paints as I have no coaches apart from a small number of NPCCS, and for Maroon I still use HR118 Crimson Lake or HR144 Red, neither now available, depending on the desired outcome,

[Noel]

I did previously use the Precision Crimson on one vehicle, for the earlier colour, but then disposed of the tin, as I felt that that also was too blue in colour.

[Paul Willis]

I sprayed my Comet Thompson full brake last night using Precision Paints P108 B.R. Maroon (dull) which I thought would be right for a NPCS in the late 50's.

Do I take it off and start again? If so any recommendations on colour? any words of encourage ?

Morning David,

First of all, I have no idea about the appropriate shade of maroon for your coach

However, a practical thought on your approach. Despite the colour that resulted, it looks as though the paint has gone on very cleanly, and is a very matt finish. As such, I would treat it as an undercoat, and not worry about stripping it. Indeed, as has been mentioned, it is the colour of the undercoat and depth of the paint coats that made many pre-Grouping liveries so lustrous.

If it was me, something would probably go wrong with the stripping/re/undercoating process anyway, and I'd be in a worse mess than now!

Just a thought...
Best,
Paul

[bécasse]

It was commonplace for NPCS vehicles to never be cleaned and presumably by choosing a matt finish you are trying to replicate that.

They got so dirty that with ex-SR vehicles in the late 1960s/early 1970s it was often the case that one could only tell if they were green or blue under the dirt by seeing which type face the painted number was in, that being the only (tiny) part of the bodywork that had ever been cleaned.

The colour that has emerged on your model is clearly not that of a dirty unlined maroon one but it might well provide a suitable base for a thorough weathering job, having first touched up (with a fine brush) with gloss maroon the immediate area where the painted number transfer is to go.

[davebradwell]

I must say that after all the care, something seems to have gone wrong with the height. Have you checked the height from rail to the top of the roof matches a drg or diagram? Without checking, I would expect the coach to match the Thompson suburban. It's probably just a matter of lowering it to the right height on the bogies.

DaveB

[Tim V]

Best colour to match to is on good old Hornby Dublo tinplate coaches.

[barhamd]

I must say that after all the care, something seems to have gone wrong with the height. Have you checked the height from rail to the top of the roof matches a drg or diagram? Without checking, I would expect the coach to match the Thompson suburban. It's probably just a matter of lowering it to the right height on the bogies.

DaveB

Yes, the body isn't attached to the chassis. Once seated properly the top of the sides match between the two coaches.
David

[Ian@Exton]

David

To return to your original question, it might be worth conducting an experiment. Try spraying a sample of the Precision Maroon paint onto a spare piece of metal (primed with light grey - see below), and when it has thoroughly dried overspraying it with gloss varnish.

I suspect that the resulting colour will be closer to the Bachmann GUV (although perhaps still too blue). If that is the case then it may be that a coat of varnish is a better next step than stripping the paint and starting again.

I understand that you probably won't want a highly reflective finish to your coach, but think it may be better to start with closer to ex works and weather down. That way there will be something for the eye to receive - both the reflections and the lighter colours of weathering. The problem of the dark and dull finish you have in the first picture is that any detail on the coack sides just disappears.

I also agree that reds can be influenced by the colour of the primer used underneath - grey may be the best starting point.

Hope that helps,
Ian

[Stephan.wintner]

If experimenting, it might be worth spraying several different undercoats - perhaps white, grey, and black - and then proceeding. That would allow a side by side comparison, ideally on decent sized samples, e.g. 6 by 6 inches perhaps. One could then mask a portion and weather only half the sample, etc. if desired.

Stephan

[alan@york]

There are colour pictures on Paul Bartlett's site which tally with the Precision paints faded effect.
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerparcels
pictures 11-13

a@y

[TonyMont]

Hi, it looks to me like the paint has bloomed, that is it was sprayed when the temperature or humidity was too low or too high. I once had a Ford Escort that was matt dark grey, it was supposed to be gloss black. It was spayed on an unheated garage on a foggy winter night.
Regards, Tony.

[Noel]

If this is the original Maroon, the vehicle has not been repainted since it was built, almost 25 years before the photographs. This is not altogether impossible as they only remained in traffic for six years, but there is no hint of the original branding or any other original markings, which would have probably left some sort of 'ghost' even if they had weathered off completely - https://www.flickr.com/photos/86020500@N06/7984810511, https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/40082757584. Also, the chalk boards have apparently been painted the same colour as the body, so it seems that the engineers repainted this vehicle at some time after it had been withdrawn from traffic.

[Mark Tatlow]

David

I have spent a decade or more agonising over the hue of several colours i use and a couple of years back found a range that I was generally comfortable with; although there is a but.......

I was specifically concerned over LMS Crimson Lake were I felt that the model paint provider's colours just weren't right. I spent some time trying to find the BS or other recognised colour referencing code from the 12 inch to the foot guys without success. However, eventually I found the paint supplier that provides paint to the heritage railway guys - this is Craftsmaster https://www.craftmasterpaints.co.uk/col ... y-colours/

I have used a number of their colours; LMS Crimson Lake, BR Crimson/Cream and LMS freight grey and I am happy with the colours of all of them. Even better, it is really good quality paint (its an enamel), you need quite moderate amounts of it to go through the airbrush to get a really opaque layer and with care as to the degree of dilution (I use cellulose thinners even though it is an enamel because they disappear so fast) you can get either a good gloss sheen that takes transfers well or a more satin that can be matted down with varnish or weathering.

The only downside is that as they supply the 12 inch to the foot modellers, it is not available in small amounts; with 500ml being the smallest size they do. As it is quality paint, I think I was paying £20 a tin but I should have enough paint to survive this lifetime and the next! My conclusion was that if it is reliable to use and I don't have to ever strip another model due to painting errors/doubtful colours, it is worth the money!



Mark

[barhamd]

I purchased a bottle of Railmatch BR Maroon #306 and applied that over the top of the previous colour. The resulting colour looks much better to my eye, much closer to the GUV.

aIMG_0052.jpg

I've attached the chassis and roof on properly now and the height matches the Hornby Thompson at the bottom of the roof better. The windows on the Hornby model appear lower but I'm not convinced it isn't Hornby who are in the wrong.

aIMG_0053.jpg

I think once I have painted the roof (it is still in primer) I'll have something which blends in with the other parcels stock I have rather than standing out like a sore thumb.

aIMG_0054.jpg

David

[grovenor-2685]

Colour looks good now, so the Precision version paint makes a good undercoat.

[barhamd]

So now I get onto the question of lining.

The Comet 'box art' shows a yellow-black-yellow line at waist level but I'm struggling to find prototype photographs of this on parcels stock. If I start searching online I'm just continuous coming up with models rather than prototypes.

Does anyone have any experience or evidence of lining on a maroon livery Thompson diagram 344 parcels full brake?

thanks
David

[Noel]

Colour looks good now, so the Precision version paint makes a good undercoat.

Sorry to disagree, Keith, but it still looks Purple to me. The 'Crimson' coach also looks too blue. Comparing colours with contemporary colour photos has its own problems, to add to the on screen reproduction issues I referred to earlier, but these colours do not look like those in contemporary photos. In addition, the colour of the BG has minimal resemblance to the colour of the GUV in the same photo, although they are nominally the same colour.

I suspect that Precision matched their colours to BS381C 540 and 541, which is apparently what BR described them as, but contemporary colour photos suggest that, if this is true, BR actually did something rather different...

So now I get onto the question of lining. The Comet 'box art' shows a yellow-black-yellow line at waist level but I'm struggling to find prototype photographs of this on parcels stock.

BGs in BR days were lined out in the same way as the contemporary passenger stock in most cases, as is the GUV, except for certain batches which had no lining at all in either plain Crimson or plain Maroon liveries [and were intended, I think, for parcels trains]. LNER stock normally did not have the upper lining as there was no space for it, so Comet are correct for the maroon livery.

[Daddyman]

Re Craftmaster paints (see Mark's post above), their own website says "BR Maroon may require extra coats due to weak colour formulation. Please contact us before purchase." This is my experience with PP too. A few years ago I painted a Hornby Gresley suburban as a test piece with airbrush PP gloss maroon and even after three coats the cream/white Hornby numbers and lettering still showed through (I don't mean they showed through as a raised outline, but rather as a cream ghost).

I agree that the colour still doesn't look right. On the Hornby experiment mentioned above I added gloss red to the PP maroon, which gave me a colour I was happier with. But note that that was on Hornby's maroon base, which would have added colour density.