Coach stock around west Cornwall pre WW1

kevini

Coach stock around west Cornwall pre WW1

Postby kevini » Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:29 pm

Does anyone know what GWR diagram number coaches would typically be in use around Cornwall in this period and what the Cornish Riviera stock was.
I am looking to build a fictional layout just pre WW1 so trying to research what rake specs to build to.

I was thinking of ratio 4 wheel kits with shire scene and wizard under chassis add-ons for branch use may be applicable but what specs for each diagram in the rake?
Not sure on main line specs for say cornish riviera rakes.

Phil O
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Re: Coach stock around west Cornwall pre WW1

Postby Phil O » Tue Dec 07, 2021 4:29 pm

kevini,

The Riviera, would probably be anything in the 70ft range, Dreadnoughts, Concertinas and Toplights, mix and match to suit. The travelling public didn't like the Dreadnoughts due to the lack of doors.n No idea about other passenger train stock, but on the mainline I would think that clerestory stock would feature quite a bit.

Cheers

Phil

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Noel
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Re: Coach stock around west Cornwall pre WW1

Postby Noel » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:43 pm

According to Harris "Great Western Coaches 1890-1954" the 'Cornish Riviera' started in July 1904 [it ran only in summer at that time] with five clerestory coaches, a 'Dreadnought' dining car and a tri-composite [type unspecified] for Falmouth. It was given three seven coach 'Dreadnought' sets in time for the summer season of 1905, which it kept until circa 1914, when it was given 70ft 'Toplight' sets. As Phil O says, other trains would be a mixture, probably all clerestory circa 1900, with one for one replacement by later vehicles over time; individual clerestory vehicles were still being overhauled in the 1930s, so the process of replacement was fairly slow. Harris shows a photograph of a King in 1935 which shows enough of the first two coaches to identify an ex-works clerestory with a clean white roof followed by a 'Dreadnought'.

I presume that you are aware that the livery started to change from brown and cream in various styles to plain brown circa 1908 [not necessarily the same as the previous brown], and to what is variously described as 'chocolate' or 'crimson lake' from 1912? There are also variations in crest or monogram, lettering details and colour of the ends of coaches in the same period.
Regards
Noel

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Penrhos1920
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Re: Coach stock around west Cornwall pre WW1

Postby Penrhos1920 » Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:25 pm

Through Falmouth coupe http://penrhos.me.uk/Clerestories.shtml#E39

Also look at some of the low roof bogie coaches as your local services. http://penrhos.me.uk/LowRoofs.shtml

petermeyer
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Re: Coach stock around west Cornwall pre WW1

Postby petermeyer » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:07 am

by Noel » Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:43 pm

... the livery started to change from brown and cream in various styles to plain brown circa 1908 [not necessarily the same as the previous brown], and to what is variously described as 'chocolate' or 'crimson lake' from 1912?


Have you any evidence of the 1912 change? Nobody has yet found a contemporary reference to that change in 1912. Whereas, RCTS for example, states Crimson Lake was introduced in 1908. I doubt there was ever a "brown" period only various versions of Lake.

Also there would have been through carriages from foreign railways in Cornwall. Notably the LNWR ran through carriages to Penzance often break composites. There were probably others.

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Noel
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Re: Coach stock around west Cornwall pre WW1

Postby Noel » Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:33 am

petermeyer wrote:Have you any evidence of the 1912 change? Nobody has yet found a contemporary reference to that change in 1912. Whereas, RCTS for example, states Crimson Lake was introduced in 1908.


I was paraphrasing Harris [1966 edition], who refers to 1908 overall colour "being best described as chocolate lake", and then goes on to say "From 1912, a much deeper shade of chocolate was used". Harris was a journalist and historian, amongst other railway oriented activities, and I have, in another context, found some fairly minor errors in his work, but he had a serious interest in railways, and knew a lot of people in positions to give him the most accurate available information.

So far as the HMRS is concerned, I have a copy of the 1967 GWR Livery Register, which refers to a change from 1908 to all brown, of "a warmer shade than that used previously", and to crimson lake in 1912. The writer was Jack Slinn, who refers in his introduction to cooperation received from the Swindon Works staff, who would be best placed to check available records. The "Lake 1912" colour sample in the back of this booklet is very dark [much darker than the LMS version as shown in the colour plates in Jenkinson and Essery], so, although there seems to be some difference of opinion over what to call colours, they appear to be otherwise consistent [and may, of course, both be derived from the same Swindon sources].

Colour reproduction, especially of paints but in a different medium, is of course a minefield, into which I do not propose to enter.
Regards
Noel


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