Early LNWR Horsebox

Lindsay G
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Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby Lindsay G » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:05 am

I've recently been reviewing requirements for build of some kits and am stumbling several imes over with an early LNWR horsebox, the subject of a David Geen kit LNWR 14 ' 3" Horsebox. The instructions and information are somewhat minimal, so I'm looking for more info either via the Forum or email if required. Here's an image of the horsebox in question taken from the instructions :

LNWR Early Horsebox.jpg

I've ben Googling to try and find more info and images but came up with nothing. I'd dearly like to see some images of this prototype, the instructions say there is one "on page ? of Pictorial History of LNWR Carriages LNWR Miscellany Vol 1 Plate 119 and Vol ? Plate 103". Can anyone provide an image or images of them? Also any other images.

What the kit is devoid of is brakes, whether handbrake or vacuum/Westinghouse, and emergency communication features. Perhaps some of these were indeed not fitted when built but were there retro-fits of such items? Also possibly missing are steps to the roof for replacing the oil lamp.

A later question would be about livery and lettering, so I might as well also include that in the need for more info. What available paint colours(from Precision/Humbrol/etc) apply and which decals if any?

LNWR is beyond me, I'm floundering in foreign waters.

Cheers, and thanks in anticipation,

Lindsay
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Winander
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby Winander » Fri Apr 23, 2021 11:42 am

Lindsay,

From LNWR Liveries (HMRS) "..in December 1871, it was decided to paint the thirds [class carriages] and horseboxes maroon, 'the same as the other coaching stock', ...".

From at least November 1858 the instructions were that the ends of the coaching stock were painted brown, so the above statement would indicate maroon with brown ends. Although not mentioned in LNWR Liveries the chassis was japan black according to Jenkinson (below) and the roof white per plate 119 in LNWR Miscellany Vol 1. The HRMS publication does not mention end colour for NPCS so doesn't contradict Jenkinson's earlier work.

Plate 2 in LNWR Carriages A Concise History by Jenkinson (Pendragon) is an edited version of plate 119 above.

LNWR Society Journal Vol 1 No 5 'HORSEBOXES PART 1 13ft 51-2in & EARLY TYPES' and Vol 1 No 10 'HORSEBOXES PART 2 14ft 6in'. They date back to the 1990s but someone on here may have them. Interesting that the LNWRS say 14ft 6 in and Geen 14ft 3in, not that it makes a great deal of difference.

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Winander
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby Winander » Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:09 pm

These BFI films have what is said (on the LNWR Soc forum) to be 19ft 6in horseboxes, the first film behind the engine and the second in the middle of the second train. Not the same animal, but nevertheless may be of interest.

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-train-station-1899-online

https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-menai-bridge-the-irish-day-mail-from-euston-entering-the-tubular-bridge-over-the
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andrewphiliphanson
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby andrewphiliphanson » Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:38 pm

Lindsay,

I wonder if the horseboxes you are interested in are the same as two surviving bodies that were found in Daventry a number of years ago and subsequently moved to the Embsay & Bolton Abbey Railway? There is some information (including a number of close-up photos) on their website here;

https://www.embsayboltonabbeyrailway.or ... wrhby.html

Unfortunately the planned restoration work doesn't seem to have taken place yet.

Andy

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Winander
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby Winander » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:59 pm

Excellent find Andy.

From the photographs, it looks like the ends were painted maroon as well as the sides. I did think it a little odd that such a small wagon would have a different colour on the ends.
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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:48 pm

Lindsay,

I have now had a chance to take a look at the books you mentioned in your opening post.

LNWR Miscellany Vol. 1 plate 119 is at Crewe looking north east along the Manchester line. The horsebox is at the bottom RH corner with the grooms' compartment nearest the camera. Only one wheel is visible and that doesn't have any brake gear.

LNWR Miscellany Vol. 2 plate 103 is at the south end of Stafford station. The caption states it is a 14' 6" horsebox. It is at the head of a train behind a Lady of the Lake 2-2-2 and the next vehicle is a 30' 1" six wheel carriage. THe grooms' compartment is away from the camera and the underframe isn't defined enough to see if there is any brake gear. The horsebox looks to be lighter in colour to the lower panel in carriage lake on the adjacent six wheeler. There is also what looks like lime wash on the lower section (a couple of planks?) of the horsebox door.

So the horsebox is shown from both sides but very much as part of an overall view. Neither plate is really crisp enough to be worth scanning.

Jenkinson's LNWR Carriages only shows a 21' horsebox in the NPCS section. He was rather focussed on the 1st class end of the LNWR diagrams, so the more mundane stock get's little attention.

Both the horseboxes shown in the BFI archive films took like the later types with a grooms' compartment ast one end and a feed/tack compartment at the other, both having double 2' doors.

Jol

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Winander
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby Winander » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:15 pm

Jol Wilkinson wrote:Jenkinson's LNWR Carriages only shows a 21' horsebox in the NPCS section. He was rather focussed on the 1st class end of the LNWR diagrams, so the more mundane stock get's little attention.


Jol,

If your carriage book is the same as my carriage book (A concise History) plate 2 page 2 is a better quality part of plate 119 in Miscellany I. It shows slightly more of the horsebox including the most of the buffer beam on the groom's end. There is no sign of a brake lever.

But they surely must have had brakes to hold them when 'parked' - does the fact that they had Mansell wheels make a difference?

Volume 1 of the LNWR Society Journal has two articles on early horseboxes, in Issue 5 and 10, the latter specifically about 14' 6" ones. I don't have copies that seem unobtainable now (even from the LNWR Soc) but would love copies of the articles, having an interest in 19thC LNWR.

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:30 pm

Richard,

I have found the two LNWRS Journals you referred to.

Vol 1, No. 5 (December 1993) has a piece on the 13' 5- 1/2" and Early Type Horseboxes.
Vol.1 No. 10 (March 1996) has the article on the 14' 6" types.

Both articles concentrate entirely on the vehicle body as the are mainly based on information on horse boxes that were still extant in the 1990's. The first article has aphoto of two 7mm horseboxes, one of which looks like the 14' 6" version. Neither have any brakes visible.

There is a drawing from the 1895 Carriage Diagram Book in the second article, very close to the one earlier in this thread. There is also a similar body only drawing (without dimensions) based on one of two then surviving grounded bodies at Daventry. There are some notes about the livery - lining and numerals/lettering - but no reference to body colour other than saying that they both displayed full LNWR livery.

No details of the underframes and running gear are given, although the caption under the crisper, cropped, photo taken from the Spider bridge at Crewe includes the comment that "there are no visible brakes at all".

Jol

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Winander
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby Winander » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:37 pm

Thanks very much Jol.

I can't believe they had no brakes, even contemporary cattle wagons had brakes.
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Guy Rixon
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby Guy Rixon » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:25 am

Is it possible that they were through piped but not vacuum fitted, and had no handbrake? I've come across NPCS without handbrakes on other lines.

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jon price
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby jon price » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:38 am

Re horseboxes with no brakes: The London Road website has this to say about a H&B horsebox: "Hull & Barnsley/LNER [horsebox]10 vehicles were built in two batches in 1884-85 and available information is sparse. As built they do not appear to have been fitted with brakes. The vehicle is however fitted with Varley’s Patent Electric Communication Gear and Westinghouse through pipe in ex-works condition.
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:35 pm

At Lindsay's request, I have scanned and attached the four pages from the LNWRS Journal Vol. 1 No.10

LNWRS Journal Vol 1 No10 HB1.jpg

LNWRS Journal Vol 1 No 10 HB2.jpg

LNWRS Journal Vol 1 No 10 HB3.jpg

LNWRS Vol 1 No 10 HB4.jpg
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SteamAle
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Re: Early LNWR Horsebox

Postby SteamAle » Fri Apr 30, 2021 11:26 pm

Thought you might be interested in more background about the Train in the first cine film clip.
Journal Cockermouth from Cine film Page 192.pdf

Philip
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