Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

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Neil Smith
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Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Neil Smith » Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:09 pm

Hi All,

I am hoping some of the GER afficionados on here might be able to shed some light on something that is puzzling folks on the opposite corner of England.

The Summer 1914 pocket timetable produced by the Furness Railway cites a number of Through Carriage workings. As well as what you might expect - services to and from Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Bradford and London Euston - there is one curiosity.

From July 13th, a daily carriage left Cambridge at 9.16am to head to Whitehaven.

But... there is no listing in the same timetable of a return working. And this is a very long way to have a foreign carriage running empty back home on a daily basis. (But see my PS below..)

And a further "but"... the historians of the Cumbrian Railways Association (the line society for the Furness, as well as the other lines in this part of the world) have not been able (yet) to find said carriage traversing either the Midland or the LNW in the train formation records - and it would have had to come one way or the other. (Admittedly the good data they have to hand is 1910 not 1914, and it would appear that through carriage workings did step up over that 4 year period - so it may be that if the 1914 train marshalling books were to hand, this question might be answered. But they're not...)

So does anyone have a summer 1914 timetable for Cambridge which can shed any light on whether this train ran at all, if so, which way it went, which company provided the coach, and how on earth did it get home again?!

All the best

Neil

PS - re one way workings, interestingly, the Furness did run an extraordinary service every Friday from Whitehaven to Southampton for those wishing to emigrate, a joyous trip that went via the Midland - so were taken via the F&MJ to Hellifield and West Yorkshire first, then added to a Bristol service through Birmingham to Cheltenham, where you were dropped off to be taken via the M&SWJ down to Southampton. The FR 3rd class carriage and passenger brake van were it seems returned empty...

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Noel
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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Noel » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:07 pm

Neil, as you say, whose coach was it? If doesn't have to be a Furness coach to be working a service in their timetable; other possibilities depend on the route used. Alternatively there might be two coaches, with the same [non-Furness] owner, or with different owners, working each way on alternate days. Given that Cambridge to Whitehaven in that era would have probably taken all day, a same day return seems unlikely, making two vehicles necessary.

One possible [probable?] route is via the GE/GN joint line to Doncaster and thence by GN to Leeds, travelling to and from Whitehaven as part of that service. If so, it or they need not return empty at all, especially if it or they could then work from Leeds to Cambridge on other services and by a different route as part of a more complex diagram.
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Noel

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Neil Smith
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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Neil Smith » Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:19 pm

Hi Noel,

Yes its all a bit of a puzzle. I agree that this would be carriage equivalent of a "lodging turn", returning the next day, given the time it would take to cross the entire country.

Your Doncaster routing idea is a possibility - which would then mean onwards via the MR from Leeds I would presume (rather than via the L&Y and the LNWR).. One thought from the CRA was that, timing wise, in 1910 it was quicker to go from Cambridge to Bletchley and then up the WCML, as there was a fast train from Cambridge to Oxford Rewley Road that set off a bit later in the hour after 0900.

My gut feeling given the "complex diagram" as you put it was that this surely must have been a MR or LNW service, given that both these companies ran extensive through carriages onto the FR - and so could accommodate the ex Cambridge carriage to work home as part of a different leg.

But... whose carriage was it?!

All the best

Neil

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Winander
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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Winander » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:21 pm

Neil,

Any idea why such a service existed? There must have been a significant demand. Could it have been war related?
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Neil Smith
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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Neil Smith » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:43 pm

Winander wrote:Neil,

Any idea why such a service existed? There must have been a significant demand. Could it have been war related?


Hi Richard,

In a word - no it isn't clear why the good folk of Cambridge all wanted to head to Whitehaven!! That said as it was a one-way working, it could I guess have been a carriage from Cambridge to somewhere that was combined with one from that somewhere to Whitehaven, rather than to meet a demand for a particular long journey?

I can say with certainty it wasn't run because of the start of the war - this service was advertised in the FR Summer timetable to start on July 13th 1914, i.e. it wasn't running from the commencement of the timetable, which was therefore even earlier (I haven't yet found a date it became effective). The war only began at the very end of July, and properly got going at the start of August, so while the service might well have continued and been beneficial during the hostilities, or at least until the Railway Executive massively cut back rail travel midway through the war, it wasn't a service conceived in wartime.

All the best

Neil

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Winander
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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Winander » Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:24 pm

Hello Nail,

Whilst not wishing to denigrate the good folk of Whitehaven or their town, it isn't exactly in the centre of things, so, to my mind, unlikely to be a waypoint in a journey for the simple fact that there are more convenient places to transit.

My first thoughts were something along the lines of Conishead Priory, formerly a hydropathic spa and a convalescent home for miners that saw a weekly special from the North East coalfields, which the carriage passes it on its route. Second thoughts related to the port. It was also predominantly industrial not a tourist destination.

all the best
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Neil Smith
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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Neil Smith » Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:56 pm

Yes Richard, in those days Whitehaven was primarily a centre of industry, with major coal and iron ore mining locally, not the attractive leisure harbour it is these days.

Many of the through carriages onto the Furness did go all the way to the end of the line, as far as the FR was concerned, i.e. Whitehaven, the others going to Barrow or Lake Side as it was then called. I think the Lake District would have been a draw for some passengers, and going through to Whitehaven meant an easy connection onto the Coniston branch too, and access to the Western Lakes. But the scale of industry in Furness and West Cumberland meant there was much business to be done, and I suspect that would have driven traffic too.

You mention Conishead Priory - in 1914 that was still a spa hotel, the Durham Miners Welfare Committee bought the site in 1928. True the hotel in its final (post war) years drew over 12,000 visitors a year, and so some passengers from the east of England would have been headed there, but I suspect that the Lakes as a whole would have been a much bigger magnet overall for leisure visitors. By 1914 the FR was reaping the reward of two decades of pushing its services as a way of accessing the Lake District.

All the best

Neil

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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Noel » Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:03 pm

Neil Smith wrote:I can say with certainty it wasn't run because of the start of the war - this service was advertised in the FR Summer timetable to start on July 13th 1914, i.e. it wasn't running from the commencement of the timetable, which was therefore even earlier (I haven't yet found a date it became effective). The war only began at the very end of July, and properly got going at the start of August, so while the service might well have continued and been beneficial during the hostilities, or at least until the Railway Executive massively cut back rail travel midway through the war, it wasn't a service conceived in wartime.


And the arrangements for it by everyone involved must have been made some time before the service actually started. The start of WW1 was largely a surprise to most people in this country, and even those who saw it coming had little warning of when, triggered as it was, essentially, by an individual act by Gavrilo Princip.
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Noel

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jon price
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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby jon price » Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:33 pm

The LNWR 1910 Marshalling Circular has the following;

The 10.10am from Euston sets out with a carriage for Keswick, and three for Windermere, all 57ft stock. There is however a note which says "Bletchley to attach Tri Composite (45ft) and Break Van (corridor, so quite possibly 50ft) for Whitehaven" There are other carriages attached at Bletchley, all of which are stated to be "off 9.25am from Cambridge" ." The train is divided at Stafford with the Lake District portion going forward at 1.27pm. The Tri Composite is balanced at 6.40 on a London train, and the Break Van on a similar train at 11.30.

the 8.30am from Carlisle has the note: "Carnforth to attach the following vehicles in front of the London portion......tri-composite (45ft)Whitehaven to London, (balanced at 9.42 from Cambridge) It looks as if this carriage goes from Whitehaven to London to Cambridge, but I suspect it would make far more sense if it was detached at Bletchley as I can't see much sense in running a single carriage from London to Cambridge via Bletchley. I havn't yet located the brake van returning, but this could be more complicated, and this info is just derived from a quick cursory glance at the 1910 stuff.

Other items of interest include the 1.55am from Manchester Exchange having a fish truck from Grimnsby to Whitehaven

the rest of the LNW traffic from Whitehaven (L&Y and LNWR carriages for variously Liverpool, Manchester and London), appear to be attached at Carnforth to trains heading South.
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Noel
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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Noel » Tue Mar 23, 2021 7:33 pm

jon price wrote:It looks as if this carriage goes from Whitehaven to London to Cambridge, but I suspect it would make far more sense if it was detached at Bletchley as I can't see much sense in running a single carriage from London to Cambridge via Bletchley.


jon price wrote: The Tri Composite is balanced at 6.40 on a London train, and the Break Van on a similar train at 11.30.


Sorry, but I'm not entirely clear about this; are you saying this is how the tri-composite gets from London to Cambridge to restart the cycle?
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Noel

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Neil Smith
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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Neil Smith » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:13 pm

jon price wrote:The LNWR 1910 Marshalling Circular has the following;

The 10.10am from Euston sets out with a carriage for Keswick, and three for Windermere, all 57ft stock. There is however a note which says "Bletchley to attach Tri Composite (45ft) and Break Van (corridor, so quite possibly 50ft) for Whitehaven" There are other carriages attached at Bletchley, all of which are stated to be "off 9.25am from Cambridge" ." The train is divided at Stafford with the Lake District portion going forward at 1.27pm. The Tri Composite is balanced at 6.40 on a London train, and the Break Van on a similar train at 11.30.

the 8.30am from Carlisle has the note: "Carnforth to attach the following vehicles in front of the London portion......tri-composite (45ft)Whitehaven to London, (balanced at 9.42 from Cambridge) It looks as if this carriage goes from Whitehaven to London to Cambridge, but I suspect it would make far more sense if it was detached at Bletchley as I can't see much sense in running a single carriage from London to Cambridge via Bletchley. I havn't yet located the brake van returning, but this could be more complicated, and this info is just derived from a quick cursory glance at the 1910 stuff.

Other items of interest include the 1.55am from Manchester Exchange having a fish truck from Grimnsby to Whitehaven

the rest of the LNW traffic from Whitehaven (L&Y and LNWR carriages for variously Liverpool, Manchester and London), appear to be attached at Carnforth to trains heading South.


Hi Jon

This is most strange - you have come up with that answer at almost exactly the same time as one of the CRA people also found it in the LNWR 1910 Marshalling Circular!

So yes - the Cambridge to Whitehaven mystery is solved! Thank you!

Just to be clear, there wasn't a balancing Whitehaven to Cambridge service, which was part of my initial puzzle. These two did go to London Euston (not Bletchley) - as part of Whitehaven to London through carriage services. The tri comp as stated by Jon left Whitehaven the next day at 0640 and was followed at 1130 when the brake went south.

Clearly at some point they would fetch back up at Cambridge to start it all over again. But this is likely to be (at least) a 3 day cycle... And that is possibly going to be even more of a mystery, and would take a significant while for someone to work out how Cambridge station was fed a tri comp and PBV each day, and how that originating station was fed same, etc - so unless someone is VERY keen, we can let that one lie perhaps...?!

For info, from the CRA, the details of what happened with the 1130 ex Whitehaven are below and they are a real confusing delight...!

It would appear that in 1910 there was no other LNWR vehicles in the train from Whitehaven going to London as none others are listed in the circular - although the FR 1914 timetable does list *1125* (not 1130) as a LNWR Whitehaven through to Euston service - and clearly passengers would not have been travelling in a PBV. So maybe in 1910 1130 was just a convenient time to send the foreign van back tagged onto another service.

There was quite a bit of marshalling done en route... At Carnforth a Corridor Third Class (which had been sat at Carnforth for almost 24 hours having come off the 14.45 from Preston the previous day, ), a Corridor Break Composite (off the 11.30 from London which again must have been the previous day's departure), and our friend the Corridor Break Van (ex Whitehaven ex Cambridge) were formed together and left Carnforth together at 1358. At Preston they were then attached to the front of the 06.45 from Aberdeen - and thus went up to the capital.

The complexities of the pre-war railway!!!

Thanks for doing the research though Jon - you turned up a couple of bits that I hadn't seen until that point, and it's gratefully appreciated.. I will pass those on to the CRA so they have the full details.

All the best

Neil

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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:33 pm

But earlier, Neil, you said you were looking for a service that started in July 1914.
So this service running in 1910 is a different one? Or the July 1914 date was wrong?
Or the service was suspended then resumed? Or was seasonal?
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Keith
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Neil Smith
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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Neil Smith » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:46 pm

Hi Keith

Sorry if I misled you. I was asking about 1914, because that was the TT I was looking at - but I wasn't aware of whether or not it was a new service that year.

It does appear to have been a high summer only service - given that the TT stated it was to commence running that year on July 13th.

Apologies, I can see where the confusion came in. By "commenced", I merely mean that this was the date in 1914 it began running. I didn't know at that point whether this was a brand new idea, or the resumption of something that had worked in previous summers.

As it turns out, with minor tweaks, the same national game of carriage chess was played out again that summer!

Hope this makes sense?

All the best

Neil

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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:15 pm

OK Seasonal makes sense enough. :)
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martin goodall
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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby martin goodall » Wed Mar 24, 2021 10:28 am

A member who might be able to shed more light on this topic is Mike Peascod, who is a very active member of the Cumbrian Railways Association (and edits their journal).

I don't think Mike frequents this forum as a general rule, but you could perhaps send him a PM through the Society.

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Re: Mystery through carriage from Cambridge to Cumbria

Postby Neil Smith » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:26 pm

martin goodall wrote:A member who might be able to shed more light on this topic is Mike Peascod, who is a very active member of the Cumbrian Railways Association (and edits their journal).


Thanks Martin,

Mike is already aware - because the original discussion was on the CRA's email chat group of which he is an active member. I broadened it out on here after initially CRA members had been unable to find an answer.

All the best

Neil


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