LMS or BR

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Serjt-Dave
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LMS or BR

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:53 pm

Hi All. Some advice please or your best guess will do.

I've just started lining out my LMS Brake Third and soon it will it's running number. As you can see from the image of the coach I'm copying, it's livery is the final LMS "simple" livery. My question is, do you think it's number would be in a LMS style figures or BR style figures? The date of the image is 1952 and sadly with the angle of the coach you can't even see the numbers let alone what style they are.

Also anyone know what the actual running number of the coach is I'll be much obliged to you if you could let me know.

Many Thanks

Keep Safe

Dave
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Noel
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby Noel » Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:02 pm

I would expect that if the livery is LMSR crimson lake then the numbers would be consistent with this, i.e. LMS post-war sans-serif. If painted after Nationalisation, though, but before BR liveries were promulgated, the "LMS" lettering would be absent.
Last edited by Noel on Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards
Noel

bécasse
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby bécasse » Thu Mar 18, 2021 6:05 pm

LMS style figures but with a BR style M prefix (and no suffix).

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BryanJohnson
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby BryanJohnson » Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:14 pm

I agree with the previous post. I think a British Railways number would have been positioned nearer the end of the coach.

The scan isn't a great photo but shows this form of numbering in June 1952 so is consistent with your photo and its date.

Bryan
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Noel
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby Noel » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:21 pm

bécasse wrote:LMS style figures but with a BR style M prefix (and no suffix).


Possibly not, I suggest. All company identification would have ceased to appear from 1/1/1948, but BR took time to determine its policies, so I would expect at least a short period when no prefix appeared.

The photo posted by Bryan Johnson shows seriffed numbers, not the unseriffed characters [which according to "LMS Coaches" were little used after 1940, so I got that wrong]. David Larkin's "BR General Parcels Rolling Stock" p33 shows an ex-LNWR BG at Stirling in 1954, described as being in Crimson Lake. It has shaded seriffed numbers, together with a smaller 'M', prefix only, also shaded and seriffed.

The initial BR number placement was towards the left-hand end, but this was fairly soon [circa 3/51, by which time repainting would be into unlined crimson] changed to the other end.
Regards
Noel

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BryanJohnson
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby BryanJohnson » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:11 pm

Modelling the early British Railways period has so many pitfalls!
Looking through the books, coaches painted between the mid-1930's and 1949 would have some form of LMS livery. Exactly what style of number could be dependent on the date it was painted and what stocks of transfers the works had, so you could be justified with most types. Prefixes were in use by 1949, and could be applied to an existing number, and maybe in a different style or size.
So, 1) I consider that it is tricky to identify what the rules were, 2) the rules wouldn't necessarily be followed, partly as 3) there would probably be shortages of both men and materials following the war.
For one of my coaches, I've used LMS maroon with LMS numbers and a prefix based on the photo I have which shows a number in an LMS position.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:51 pm

Thanks guys, not very straight forward is it? The Jenkins book doesn't help much either.

So let me see if I've got it right. It's original number in sheriffed style lettering and with a BR style M prefix. My Image looks like it's number is inbetween the second and third compartment. In the Jenkins book it shows a similar coach built in 49 outshopped like this, other than having BR style numbers as well.

I agree that in BR early days it takes awhile for the new way of things to come on line {excuse the pun}.

My problem now is I've got to order some Sheriffed style numbers as I only got Block style. So won't be getting this coach finished this week.

Thanks for your help again.

Keep Safe

Dave

John Palmer
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby John Palmer » Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:28 am

Do I detect an LMS design 'No smoking' target on the right hand quarterlight of the nearest compartment in the Period II BT shown in the 1952 photograph at Edington? The second straw line above the windows is almost completely indistinct. I think the number for this vehicle can be seen between compartments 4 and 5, numbering away from from the photographer's position.

Photographs indicate that, post war, the preponderance of trains on the Bridgwater Railway comprised a single non-gangwayed Brake Third, but that up to at least March 1952 this vehicle was usually of LMS Period I fully panelled design. One such carriage was M20156, photographed at Bridgwater with the 3/50 for Edington on 14 April 1951. The number is in the extreme left-hand waist panel beneath the ducket, with numerals in LMS sans serif style. The M prefix may be marginally smaller and in BR style, but it's hard to tell. No suffix letter.

LMS livery persisted on S&D Branch trains for several years after nationalisation. I have a fine shot of a Branch 2-set formed LMS Per.II BT and LMS Per.I CL passing Highbridge B behind 58051 (which fixes the date as post-September 1952, when the locomotive was re-allocated to Highbridge). Yet the CL is clearly still in LMS-style livery with number M19047 all executed in serif characters. First class compartments only carry a serif class designator, and smoking/no smoking labels affixed to windows also appear to be LMS in style.

Sorry I can't assist with a number for the Period II BT your model represents, Dave – perhaps you need to get cracking on a model of the Period I equivalent that seems to have been a more common resident of the Bridgwater Railway! For your vehicle, I think you could get away with numerals and and 'M' prefix in either serif or sans serif style, but if you go the sans serif route I would use use the BR-style sans serif 'M' for the prefix.

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sat Mar 20, 2021 6:31 pm

Thanks John, a wealth of info as always. I've got two more coaches to build for the Bridgewater branch and one of them is a Period 1 Brake Third.

All Best and Keep Safe

Dave

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:15 pm

Hi All, I've just had one of those "bugger I've made the wrong coach moments". I managed to locate some LMS coach transfers for my Brake Third {curtsey of Mr Johnson} and was working out how many Smoking and Non Smoking signs I will need. Looking at the LMS Coach book it shows that D1735 had 4 Smoking Compartments and 2 Non Smoking Compartments and these were located in the first two compartments furthest from the Brake Van. Mr Palmer mentions that in my image of the coach I'm making at Edington you can see a LMS style Non Smoking sign in the first compartment nearest the Brake Van. Checking the LMS book again and reading a sub note associated with the drawing of the general layout of Brake Thirds, it says that D1964A Period III had their two Non Smoking Compartments next to the Brake Van. So Having I been building the wrong bloody coach? In the Non Corridor chapter of the LMS Coach book there is a image showing the inside of the Guard and Brake compartment of a D1964A Brake Third but they have
different door arrangement for the Brake Van. D1735 have a door for the Guard and a double luggage doors, where's D1964A only have the double luggage doors. So a sigh of relief it's not a D1964A but is it a D1735? I do hope so.

All Best

Dave

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BryanJohnson
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby BryanJohnson » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:59 pm

Don't Panic!

I'm happy that you have correctly built a D1735 and not a Period III coach. For me, the main difference is that a Period II coach has a steel panelled body and a canvas roof with long, curved rainstrips which your prototype and model have. The door stops seem to be in the middle of the doors, which is another pointer to early 1930's build. Whilst not quite as reliable a clue on a 20 year old vehicle, the torpedo roof ventilators pre-date the change to shell ventilators around 1933. The first lots of D1735 built 1930 - 1932 were Period II vehicles so I think it will be one of those.

The LMS coach books are littered with photographs which show differences to the drawing, location of smoking and non-smoking compartments are the most common, but roof ventilator types are another.

Bryan

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby Serjt-Dave » Mon Apr 19, 2021 3:48 pm

Thanks Bryan for clarifying that for me. Now for the next oddity.

Sitting down at my workbench to add the numbers to the coach sides. I'm looking at my image of the coach at Edington, to me the number looks much higher up than normal. I know the images isn't particularly clear but to me that the numbers are sitting between the door stops and the windows {below the lining}. Where's in the LMS Coach book shows the numbering just below the height of the door stops. To me it looks like LMS numbers are slightly bigger than BR ones. Roughly gauging it, it would be quite tight to fit the five LMS numbers the space inbetween the bottom of the windows and the door stops, and then to add the M as well. So could this coach have been renumbered using BR numbers? Just to muddy the waters even more, in the LMS Coach book there's a outshopped in the final LMS livery but with BR numbers and they are below the height of the door stops. AAGGHH!

Any thoughts or comments please.

All Best

Dave

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BryanJohnson
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby BryanJohnson » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:54 pm

Your coach does seem to be a bit of an exception to the rules.

1) For width, it looks like you just use all the space available, but see point 2 below. The attached photo (taken from this RMWeb thread https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... years-ago/) shows a Driving Trailer version of the D1735 but would be built around the same time as yours. Whilst not a great quality image, the livery looks to be LMS and the numbering looks more like LMS than British Railways. The M prefix looks to be closer to the door than the final digit.
LMS Auto-Train unknown early.jpg

2) For height, I can't find any photo of a steel bodied coach with the numbers above the door stops, but that's where it is on your prototype. This means that you've got the grab handle taking up some of the width.

Have you looked at where it goes on the other side yet?

Bryan
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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby Serjt-Dave » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:24 pm

Hi Bryan, trust me to find a awkward coach to make. LOL.

I've have the image you've supplied, a Push Pull train from Wells {Priory Road}. The livery makes sense here, a LMS livery with LMS numbers and the M added after nationalisation and in the correct place. As the number would have been applied centrally, so adding the M later has now put it off centre.

I do have a image showing the other side but the coach side is shaded by the canopy.

I'm frantically thumbing through all my S&D books looking to see if I can see the same coach or similar but no luck so far.

Dave

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby Serjt-Dave » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:22 pm

Hi All. I bit the bullet and applied the running number to my Brake Third as per LMS regs. The M prefix is slightly smaller so I don't know whether to change this to a BR M. I might do the other side using BR numerals and see which one I prefer.

All Best

Dave

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby Serjt-Dave » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:06 pm

Another cruel close up of my Brake Third. I've put the running number on the other side but have used a BR style M. I prefer this to using a LMS style M as it emphasise the fact that the M was added at a later date. What do you think?

All Best

Dave
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Serjt-Dave
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Re: LMS or BR

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:35 pm

I think I'll settle for LMS numbers and BR M as in my previous post. Also I'm on a weeks leave now and apart from laying my new patio I would love to get my Brake third all finished.

Here are some images showing the different ways that pre nationalisation liveries were adapted in the early years of BR. These three images are from the S&D.

All Best

Dave
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