LMS Push Pull coaches

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BryanJohnson
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LMS Push Pull coaches

Postby BryanJohnson » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:17 pm

Hi,

Does anyone have any information on the positioning of the additional vacuum pipe used for loco control at the coach ends of LMS Push Pull stock, for both the Driving Trailer and intermediate coaches?

Thanks,

Bryan

Dave Holt
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Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Re: LMS Push Pull coaches

Postby Dave Holt » Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:34 pm

Bryan.
As far as I'm aware, the additional vacuum hose/stand-pipe for push-pull working, was identical to the normal train vacuum pipe but mounted on the opposite side of the coupling hook, the same distance from the centre line.
Dave.

ralphrobertson
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Re: LMS Push Pull coaches

Postby ralphrobertson » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:12 pm

Hi Bryan

LMS Coaches Vol 3 pages 47, 48 and 51 have some drawings and photos. Show exactly what Dave says but there is a kink on the pipe to the right just about the headstock.

PM me and I can send you a scan of the pages.

Ralph

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BryanJohnson
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Re: LMS Push Pull coaches

Postby BryanJohnson » Sun Feb 21, 2021 1:20 pm

Hi Dave,
Thanks for the quick reply. However, as with many railway things, I think it's a bit more complex.
When looking at the end of most vacuum fitted vehicles, the vacuum pipe will be on the left of the coupling hook. When the vehicles are coupled up, the flexible hose will cross over the centre line. Also, the pipe will cross within the underframe.
However.... In the LMS coaches book, there is a photo of the end of an all-third intermediate trailer. This has the control vacuum pipe on the left, with the train vacuum pipe and associated alarm gear on the right. All the auto fitted locos and driving ends of driving trailers have the train vacuum on the left and control vacuum on the right.
I'm therefore wondering whether push pull fitted coaches kept each pipe to their respective sides along the vehicle. If so, the coach underframe would effectively be "handed". I can't see any evidence from train photographs that sets were marshalled with all coaches the same way round, based on whether the battery box or regulator is visible.
There must be some reason why the pipes in the photo were designed that way, but I can't see it. I doubt it would be allowed now as there's the danger of the wrong pipes being connected when coupling up.
Thanks,
Bryan

Daddyman
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Re: LMS Push Pull coaches

Postby Daddyman » Sun Feb 21, 2021 2:32 pm

I can't help on matters LMS, I'm afraid, but when I was researching ex-NER carriages in LNER days recently, I was surprised to see that all connection hoses on the bufferbeam are on the right when the carriage is viewed head-on from both ends - that is, the vacuum pipe clearly crosses from side to side underneath the carriages. I had initially assumed that the vacuum connecting hose would be on the left of the coupling hook at one end, and the right at the other, as on LNER wagons. However, there were outliers: cases where the pipe was on the left of the hook (whether they had the standpipe on the left at the other end too, I don't know). There's nothing to say your intermediate trailer wasn't the same, with the pipes crossing over left to left under the carriage.

But I don't really see a problem with the arrangement you describe: the pipes have enough flex to reach over to the centre line to a pipe on the opposite side of the hook when coupling up; and, on the LNER C15s at least, the two hoses/standpipes are sufficiently different for crews not to be confused - they may even have collars on them denoting their use. I wonder if it's significant that on the push-pull C15s Cowlairs went to all the trouble of moving the train vacuum pipe from the left to the right of coupling hook (when viewed head-on).

This is probably not help at all!

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BryanJohnson
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Re: LMS Push Pull coaches

Postby BryanJohnson » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:26 pm

I've avoided LNER & constituent coaches, but their wagons did have the pipe staying on the same side in the majority of cases. As they commonly had a standpipe, the top was on the centre line well above the coupling hook with the pipe dropping down to the buffer beam left or right at opposite ends. The drawing on page 4 of Tatlow's LNER Wagons book shows this.

For the coaches, having the pipe on the right as you describe sounds a bit non-standard.

I agree that having the pipes crossing over between coaches is OK, but with low level connections, having 2 vacuum pipes and a steam heating pipe all swapping sides under the coupling would be a bit congested, but interesting to model.

Bryan

Daddyman
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Re: LMS Push Pull coaches

Postby Daddyman » Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:56 pm

BryanJohnson wrote: For the coaches, having the pipe on the right as you describe sounds a bit non-standard.

Of course, it could be that all the photos that exist of ex-NER carriages show the same end (the one with the standpipe on the right)! But it's highly unlikely.


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