1938 SR coaches query
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1938 SR coaches query
About 10 years ago I purchased this image from Getty Images (not cheap!).
I was wondering if any of you SR folk might know what coaches we are looking at? I dare not speculate as I remember once asking on SemG about some birdcage coaches in a 1920's photo that turned out to be Pullman stock in a publicity photograph....
This photo has the workman deliberately framed to look as though he is hanging dangerously over the edge of Southwark Cathedral tower whereas he is actually hanging off a wire securing the flagpole in place on the tower roof.
Andrew
I was wondering if any of you SR folk might know what coaches we are looking at? I dare not speculate as I remember once asking on SemG about some birdcage coaches in a 1920's photo that turned out to be Pullman stock in a publicity photograph....
This photo has the workman deliberately framed to look as though he is hanging dangerously over the edge of Southwark Cathedral tower whereas he is actually hanging off a wire securing the flagpole in place on the tower roof.
Andrew
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
might not be hanging over the edge of the building but the 20ft drop to the roof would have uncomfortable results
Connah's Quay Workshop threads: viewforum.php?f=125
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
They are part of an electric multiple unit. Not quite clear but they seem to be bodywork of SER origin as mounted on new underframes in 1925. Most confusing!
William
William
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
I think that only the largely hidden left-hand carriage is actually part of a classic electric multiple unit (usually referred to in more modern publications as 3-SUBs but known to the Southern Railway just as 3s). I think that the other two carriages are one of the two carriage trailer sets that were used between two 3s to form eight car rush hour trains (known, unsurprisingly, as 8s). Both these carriages have 10 3rd class compartments whereas the middle car of the 3s of SECR origin comprised only nine compartments - 3rd, 7x1st, 3rd.
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
Is that not the double doors of a brake compartment in the top right? That implies we are looking at multiple unit rather than a trailer set.
But I now think the stock is ex-LSWR mounted on new underframes. SER stock had two rows of ventilators, with those for each compartment opposite each other; this has one row of ventilators down the middle of the roof which is typical of LSWR. Also the configuration of compartments doesn't match any ex-SER conversion that I know of, on the coach we see clearly it seems to be thirds to the right and Firsts or ex-Seconds to the left.
William
But I now think the stock is ex-LSWR mounted on new underframes. SER stock had two rows of ventilators, with those for each compartment opposite each other; this has one row of ventilators down the middle of the roof which is typical of LSWR. Also the configuration of compartments doesn't match any ex-SER conversion that I know of, on the coach we see clearly it seems to be thirds to the right and Firsts or ex-Seconds to the left.
William
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
I agree that the right hand coach appears to be a motor driver - the shoe gear seems to be just about visible on the bogie the right hand end, and it looks as though it is the end vehicle. The second coach is a 10 compartment, but it isn't possible to tell what the third coach is [for me anyway - those more familiar with them may be able to do so]. As all three are panelled and of the same profile, and the date is before their conversions to 4 SUBs I think that this is an original LSWR built 3 SUB set or one of the later SR conversions from LSWR stock.
Regards
Noel
Noel
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
Apologies for failing to spot that the carriages were of LSWR origin, SECR and LSWR vehicles can look remarkably similar from some distant angles and I had forgotten the business about the ventilators, not least because it can be very difficult to ascertain the precise arrangement in photos taken from more normal angles even if they are a perfect clue in this one. I would add the excuse that I had barely turned 14 when the last wooden bodied sets disappeared and that, even then, only the reformed ex-LBSCR 4-SUBs in the 45xx series had been around for several years.
The original LSWR sets from the Great War era originally had short carriages and they too were lengthened and placed on new underframes by the Southern. I think that these rebuilds were all in the same style, although there may have been some slight variation in the lengths of the added compartments. The other LSWR rebuilds, though, were a real hotchpot with some units incorporating 1st class saloons in the middle coach - I only managed to travel in one once, downgraded to 3rd by then, and certainly working on the South Eastern. Given that they were all mounted on standard length underframes, the odd compartment lengths were evened out by including a void between some adjacent compartments - made obvious by the external panelling. The underframes weren't, of course, generally scrapped with the bodies but went under newly built Bullied-style 4-EPBs. The Bulleid-style strengthening carriages added to 3s in the late 1940s to turn them into 4-SUBs also went into 4-EPBs including a few vehicles with only 9 compartments originally so built to facilitate the subsequent provision of 1st class accommodation.
The original LSWR sets from the Great War era originally had short carriages and they too were lengthened and placed on new underframes by the Southern. I think that these rebuilds were all in the same style, although there may have been some slight variation in the lengths of the added compartments. The other LSWR rebuilds, though, were a real hotchpot with some units incorporating 1st class saloons in the middle coach - I only managed to travel in one once, downgraded to 3rd by then, and certainly working on the South Eastern. Given that they were all mounted on standard length underframes, the odd compartment lengths were evened out by including a void between some adjacent compartments - made obvious by the external panelling. The underframes weren't, of course, generally scrapped with the bodies but went under newly built Bullied-style 4-EPBs. The Bulleid-style strengthening carriages added to 3s in the late 1940s to turn them into 4-SUBs also went into 4-EPBs including a few vehicles with only 9 compartments originally so built to facilitate the subsequent provision of 1st class accommodation.
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
BrockleyAndrew wrote:About 10 years ago I purchased this image from Getty Images (not cheap!).
I was wondering if any of you SR folk might know what coaches we are looking at? I dare not speculate as I remember once asking on SemG about some birdcage coaches in a 1920's photo that turned out to be Pullman stock in a publicity photograph....
This photo has the workman deliberately framed to look as though he is hanging dangerously over the edge of Southwark Cathedral tower whereas he is actually hanging off a wire securing the flagpole in place on the tower roof.
Andrew
A variation on sliding down the backstay, which is what happens on square-rigged ships when someone wants to get back to the deck without delay or fuss. Usually accomplished by arms and legs, though, even in the days before health and safety came to be a serious issue.
Tony
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
Yes from this angle telling LSWR and SER bodywork apart is not easy. From the side the panelling is quite different but I could not make out which it was in this photo.
As you remember the steam stock conversions, can you help with something that has been puzzling me? Some of the SER bodies reused as EMUs had half-height partitions in the thirds when built. Were these perpetuated in the EMUs, on conversion and if so later in their life? Or had they possibly been replaced by proper partitions before conversion anyway?
William
As you remember the steam stock conversions, can you help with something that has been puzzling me? Some of the SER bodies reused as EMUs had half-height partitions in the thirds when built. Were these perpetuated in the EMUs, on conversion and if so later in their life? Or had they possibly been replaced by proper partitions before conversion anyway?
William
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
Well. True to form I've posted this in the wrong sub forum, should be in Diesels and EMUs, but as they Are converted coach stock I suppose it's not too heinous a mistake...
Many thanks for the replies, most interesting and I've pulled out David Brown's Southern Electric to revisit the rebuildings and also failed to find the book of EMU diagrams which is odd as, due to it's lengthwise format, it usually is sticking out from the rest.
I didn't mean to imply that the chap on the wire was perfectly safe, although I'm impressed to hear he may be sliding down it. I'm not keen on heights, less so as I get older. This photograph reminds me of those b&w shots of construction workers sitting on girders eating lunch way above the NY streets. They give me the horrors!
Thanks again for the information.
Andrew
Many thanks for the replies, most interesting and I've pulled out David Brown's Southern Electric to revisit the rebuildings and also failed to find the book of EMU diagrams which is odd as, due to it's lengthwise format, it usually is sticking out from the rest.
I didn't mean to imply that the chap on the wire was perfectly safe, although I'm impressed to hear he may be sliding down it. I'm not keen on heights, less so as I get older. This photograph reminds me of those b&w shots of construction workers sitting on girders eating lunch way above the NY streets. They give me the horrors!
Thanks again for the information.
Andrew
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
For whatever interest it may be, here's the artwork I drew up for the wonderful day when I have both enough eyesight left and enough time to have etchings made for the Eastern Section 1925 stock.
Diagram 755 has the void where the steam bodies didn't meet in the middle, indicated by the big blank panel. I am unsure whether another couple of strips of vertical beading would have been added for appearance's sake, and have never seen a photograph clear enough to be able to tell - has anyone any thoughts on this?
Having done artwork for, the 4- and 6-wheel coaches (and even built the 6-wheelers) from which these vehicles were made, I cut and pasted the relevant bits into a 62ft length just as the SR did. This is a little more accurate than is to be found in a certain book about SR electric multiple units, in which the author represented these conversions by simply slapping down doors at the same spacing as the new built stock, then for some reason applying LSWR style panelling, despite taking the trouble to draw those SER commode handles with five right angles in them.
David Brown's books though are superb, not only accurate so far as I can tell, but also readable in their own right.
William
Diagram 755 has the void where the steam bodies didn't meet in the middle, indicated by the big blank panel. I am unsure whether another couple of strips of vertical beading would have been added for appearance's sake, and have never seen a photograph clear enough to be able to tell - has anyone any thoughts on this?
Having done artwork for, the 4- and 6-wheel coaches (and even built the 6-wheelers) from which these vehicles were made, I cut and pasted the relevant bits into a 62ft length just as the SR did. This is a little more accurate than is to be found in a certain book about SR electric multiple units, in which the author represented these conversions by simply slapping down doors at the same spacing as the new built stock, then for some reason applying LSWR style panelling, despite taking the trouble to draw those SER commode handles with five right angles in them.
David Brown's books though are superb, not only accurate so far as I can tell, but also readable in their own right.
William
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
williambarter wrote:As you remember the steam stock conversions, can you help with something that has been puzzling me? Some of the SER bodies reused as EMUs had half-height partitions in the thirds when built. Were these perpetuated in the EMUs, on conversion and if so later in their life? Or had they possibly been replaced by proper partitions before conversion anyway?
I think that you can be fairly certain that they had full height partitions when they formed part of the electric fleet. I certainly never came across any half-height partitions when travelling and the spotters on the footbridge at Hither Green were remarkably knowledgable about oddities in the fleet - the odd unit with a saloon, the "half-and-half unit 4590 and the strange all-steel but different inside 4377, for example, were all sought after with a "cop" considered to offer bonus points! Even the units which had very old system maps which showed (the then contemporary) electrified lines in red in some compartments (and some of those survived into the late 45xx fleet) were considered special.
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
Thanks for those recollections. Prompts another question - do you recall the third class compartments as well as the ex-seconds and firsts as having maps/advertisements each side of a mirror, as I was familiar with in the EPB stock? The steam thirds as built had simply matchboarding for the partitions, with no mirrors or pictures - it would be plausible that they were brought up to the same standard as contemporary new built stock at the time of conversion.
Mention of the 'lengthwise format' book of EMU diagrams sounds rather like the one with the bizarre plans I warned against in an earlier message!
William
Mention of the 'lengthwise format' book of EMU diagrams sounds rather like the one with the bizarre plans I warned against in an earlier message!
William
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
williambarter wrote:Thanks for those recollections. Prompts another question - do you recall the third class compartments as well as the ex-seconds and firsts as having maps/advertisements each side of a mirror, as I was familiar with in the EPB stock? The steam thirds as built had simply matchboarding for the partitions, with no mirrors or pictures - it would be plausible that they were brought up to the same standard as contemporary new built stock at the time of conversion.
Mention of the 'lengthwise format' book of EMU diagrams sounds rather like the one with the bizarre plans I warned against in an earlier message!
Mirror one side in the middle, electrified-system (geographical) map on the other side in the middle, pictures of places served by SR (watercolours IIRC) either side of mirror/map - so three items of the same size each side. The presence of very early maps in some compartments even in the late-1950s makes it clear that these were fitted from the formation of the units.
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
Thank you! And logically if the maps were fitted, the full height partitions to attach them to must also have been present ...
It looks as if the half height partitions, which would have been in the Diagram 665 and 666 motor coaches at the inside end, had been made full height either at conversion or some time before.
William
It looks as if the half height partitions, which would have been in the Diagram 665 and 666 motor coaches at the inside end, had been made full height either at conversion or some time before.
William
Re: 1938 SR coaches query
Becasse’s comments about the mirror and otherwise three-a-side embellishments on the partitions accords with my own recollections as a callow youth frequently travelling in such stock.
One vivid memory is that on several occasions I noticed that the overhead luggage racks had brownish painted cast iron brackets inscribed with SER (not, note, SECR) which I found intriguing and helped to trigger my wish to find out more about what I later read were cut-and-shut conversions from ancient carriage bodies onto SR underframes.
Chris McCarthy
One vivid memory is that on several occasions I noticed that the overhead luggage racks had brownish painted cast iron brackets inscribed with SER (not, note, SECR) which I found intriguing and helped to trigger my wish to find out more about what I later read were cut-and-shut conversions from ancient carriage bodies onto SR underframes.
Chris McCarthy
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
Certainly some of the coaches involved dated from the 1880s, others were a decade or so younger. I don't think any came from the SECR (post-1899) era.
William
William
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
williambarter wrote:Certainly some of the coaches involved dated from the 1880s, others were a decade or so younger. I don't think any came from the SECR (post-1899) era.
It is rather ironic that the SE&CR built quite a substantial fleet of near-identical 10-compartment (100-seater) thirds with the intention that they would be included in electric sets when the inevitable electrification of its suburban network became possible, but the Southern decided that they were too useful as steam-hauled vehicles and not one of them was ever incorporated in an electric set. In effect, they became the Southern's standard non-corridor high-capacity third and they could be found pretty much all over the Southern system, even as strengthening vehicles in pull-and-push trains. Although the Southern rebuilt many non-corridor steam-hauled vehicles that it inherited, unlike the other three "big-four" companies, it never built any new ones.
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Re: 1938 SR coaches query
I wonder if one reason that these 100-seat thirds were not used in electric stock is simply that they were thirds not composites. In I think every incarnation of a 3-car unit for the SR electrification, the motor coaches were full third , and the middle trailer coach was a composite. That makes it quite hard to see what configuration of EMU would have used a non-driving full third, unless it was intended they be converted to motor coaches.
Also the 100 seaters were only 8ft wide - wasn't the new built electric stock 8ft 6in wide, which may not have allowed more seats but I imagine the extra inch or so for each passenger was welcome. So either that extra inch would have to be foregone, or the EMUs would be a mix of widths - maybe not a mission critical issue though!
William
Also the 100 seaters were only 8ft wide - wasn't the new built electric stock 8ft 6in wide, which may not have allowed more seats but I imagine the extra inch or so for each passenger was welcome. So either that extra inch would have to be foregone, or the EMUs would be a mix of widths - maybe not a mission critical issue though!
William
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