Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

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David Thorpe
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Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby David Thorpe » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:01 pm

I am currenty buiding a set of bill Bedford's 8' Fox coach bigies and have a come across a couple of problems.

First, the braking system. I was gratified on making up and fitting the outside brakes that they lined up perfectly with the wheels. However, the inner sets leave the brake blocks too far away from the wheel itself. I have managed to get round this in that once the problem became apparent the Bodge side of my brain sprang into life and using my trusty Parkside drill (kept for less delicate work) and a cutting disc I made a couple of slots in the longitudinal supports nearer the wheels and once the brake assembly was fitted into these the brakes appear to be a more appropriate distance away from the wheels. But I feel sure that I must have missed something or done something wrong in the first place to have found myself needing to do this.

Secondly, one or two of the spring carriers appear to be a bit loose on the springing wire. Is there any reason that, having ascertained that the wires are of the correct diameter, I should not solder the carrier onto the wire? And similarly, becasue the wire on one side keeps trying to escape from the end support which is open at the top, is there any reason why I should not solder the wire to that or is some movement essential? Of course, it would help if the guitar wire used was dead straight, but I have not yet found a way of satisfatorily straightening steel guitar wire (other than using it in a guitar).

DT
Last edited by David Thorpe on Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:16 pm

I do find the bits of wire in the kits difficult to use because of the curve. I replace it with pieces cut from Ernie Ball Guitar strings I buy seperately, these straighten out enough when removed from the packet.
You can solder the wire to the bearing holders although I have never found it neccessary, Squeezing the fingers together with pliers holds it pretty firm.
Soldering the wire to the chassis mounts will prevent the springs from working. If needed use a bit of spare fret or something to stop the wire falling out.
Rgds
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Keith
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bécasse
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby bécasse » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:41 pm

"Of course, it would help if the guitar wire used was dead straight, but I have not yet found a way of satisfatorily straightening steel guitar wire (other than using it in a guitar)."

It is a long time since I last had to straighten guitar wire (although ironically I will need to do so again soon), but when I did the old trick of fastening one end of a long length very firmly in a vice and then, holding the other end equally firmly in a pair of pliers, pulling it long and hard used to work.

It is, of course, possible that the metallurgy of modern wires is different, preventing the trick from working - in which case, I am about to have a potential problem!

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:33 pm

The problem is that the wire in Bill's kits comes in a short length and significantly curved, pulling to sraighten is not really practical. Using Ernie Ball strings you get around a meter and it has very little if any residual curve over the 20mm or so required. I have not found any need to try and further straighten these strings. They are the same ones used for AJ coupling hooks.
Rgds
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Julian Roberts
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jan 17, 2020 7:04 am

Which guitar string is the correct one for AJs Keith and is Ernie Ball the only brand where you can get the qualities you're after?

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri Jan 17, 2020 9:55 am

David Thorpe wrote:Secondly, one or two of the spring carriers appear to be a bit loose on the springing wire. Is there any reason that, having ascertained that the wires are of the correct diameter, I should not solder the carrier onto the wire? And similarly, becasue the wire on one side keeps trying to escape from the end support which is open at the top, is there any reason why I should not solder the wire to that or is some movement essential?


I think fixing the wire to the end support would not work: it would inhibit the spring from flexing. The spring "wants" to slide slightly through the supports as it bends, so that the length of the wire need not change. If you force it to stretch as well as to bend then surely the spring rate would be increased?

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Will L
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby Will L » Fri Jan 17, 2020 10:42 am

Agreeing with Keith and Guy. You can solder the wire to the bearing carrier if need be, though most find it unnecessary, but not the end of the spring to the end support. I would have thought that soldering at the centre would also cure any tendency to pop out at the ends?

davebradwell
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby davebradwell » Fri Jan 17, 2020 11:08 am

I don't get the wire problem. Don't you just hold the bit of curved wire in a pair of pliers and stroke between thumb and forefinger? Sometimes it curves the other way but just try again. I can straighten a lot of wire by the time you've sourced your guitar string.

It's #2 music wire for AJs, Julian. Perhaps you can scrounge some from your piano fixing man but it'll be curved - see above.

Some useful spring information for fiddlers - non ferrous wire deflects roughly twice as much as steel for the same load. A thou' reduction in diameter at this size gives around a 50% increase in deflection but don't stray far - work it out as deflection deceases with the fourth power of diameter. It's a square law on the span.

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Julian Roberts
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby Julian Roberts » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:05 pm

Just been to guitar shop while in city. Correct thickness of E string varies according to ..... bla bla ...no time to understand with parking meter expiring! But 11 thou is ONE of the correct thicknesses for E string, and is the correct thickness for AJs according to Turner/S4 jig instructions. Great thing is, it's straight when cut to length needed.
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby grovenor-2685 » Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:41 pm

Julian Roberts wrote:Which guitar string is the correct one for AJs Keith and is Ernie Ball the only brand where you can get the qualities you're after?

As Julian has show there are other makes, the music shop I used (now gone) sold Ernie Ball and they seem to be common on line, a Google search fot guitar string does the trick. They are sold in thou, 11 thou for AJs, for springs and CSBs depends on the weight of the vehicle so get a selection. A small change in diameter makes quite a difference so you don't want to go to far from the 11 thou.
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David Thorpe
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby David Thorpe » Fri Jan 17, 2020 1:43 pm

I hadn't actually been using the wire supplied with the kit as I've found that prone to rust - indeed, someimes when I've opened a pack i've found traces of rust on the wire. So instead I've been using Elixir Anti-Rust plain steel guitar wire, No. 11 in this instance. The problem I've just had may be because I'd come to the very end of the coil and that was more difficult to straighten.

But has anyone encountered the apparent discrepancy in the problem with the brake blocks that I mentioned at the start of this thread? The instructions say virtually nothing about the brakes but there seems to be only one way of making the brake assembies and one way of fitting them, and that leaves the inner set at a substantially unprototypical distance away from the wheel - the outer set is fine.

Dave, I have stroked wire as you have suggested but it has remained stubbornly curved. Maybe you're related to Uri Geller?

DT

Dave Franks
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby Dave Franks » Fri Jan 17, 2020 3:17 pm

And remember, Lanarkshire Models sell rust resistant spring steel wire as used in the CSB chassis kits and I use it myself.....

http://lanarkshiremodels.com/lanarkshir ... te_200.htm

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Dave Franks
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Will L
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby Will L » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:12 pm

David Thorpe wrote:...Dave, I have stroked wire as you have suggested but it has remained stubbornly curved. Maybe you're related to Uri Geller?

I find it works well with brass wire but steel wire is much more resistant. I've noted that the wire Bill supplies can be is a bit on the curvy side but like Keith I swear by Ernie Ball

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Steve Carter
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby Steve Carter » Fri Jan 17, 2020 4:29 pm

David Thorpe wrote:
But has anyone encountered the apparent discrepancy in the problem with the brake blocks that I mentioned at the start of this thread? The instructions say virtually nothing about the brakes but there seems to be only one way of making the brake assembies and one way of fitting them, and that leaves the inner set at a substantially unprototypical distance away from the wheel - the outer set is fine.

DT


Hi David

This is for BB Mk.1 bogies but it may help? https://steamlinesheffield.files.wordpr ... 08/mk1.pdf

Steve
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David Thorpe
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby David Thorpe » Fri Jan 17, 2020 5:44 pm

Thanks, Steve, that's very helpful indeed. Being for a Fox 8' bogie the etch I have is not quite the same as BR Mk1 units in John Brighton's article - in fact, there are quite a few differences. First, the brake etchings on the Mk.1s already incorporate brake shoes - on mine they have to be added separately. Secondly (and this is where my complaint lies) the brake units on the Mk.1 kit aappear to be of two different lengths - those on the right in the picture at the top of page 3 are longer than those on the left. The shorter ones will fit in the outer ends of the bogies, while the longer ones, which have a longer fold-over, will be the inside ones. This can clearly be seen in the top picture on page 4 of the article. On my etch all four brake units are the same length and as a result the inside ones, when correctly positioned, are well short of the wheel. And thirdly the corner tabs on the Mk.1 kt appear to have holes for the spring wire whileas my kit has an open gap from which the spring can escape.

The etch I have is dated 2002 and therefore appears to have ben designed later than the Mk.1 one, which appears to be dated 2001. Unfortunately the changes that have been made do not appear to have been for the better.

DT

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby Mark Tatlow » Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:45 pm

David,

I think the Fox 8 foot bogies have this issue. If you know about it and have not already soldered it solid, can you not flex the brake hangers forward. In theory you will narrow the width but only by a fraction?

I use a fair number of Bill Bedford sprung units and getting the brakes in the right place is the main issue. It is one of the reasons that I came up with my own design of fox bogie - https://miscellanymodels.com/future-pla ... ox-bogies/ or https://highlandmiscellany.com/2018/04/ ... ht-bogies/

The best place to buy guitar strings is https://www.stringsdirect.co.uk and you will discover that there a vast number of suppliers for them and they are available in lots of thicknesses. I actually tend to use 10 gauge or 11 gauge depending on whether it is a light (plastic) coach or heavy one (brass). Some strings come as unsurfaced steel and others are nickel plated; go for the latter as it makes them more rust resistant and you can solder to them. Ernie Balls are nickel plated and like the others I use them.

I find it necessary to solder the bearing carriers to the wire and it is imperative to get these exactly lined up with the bearing slots - I find that you actually have to have the carriers in the slots to do this so I smear a little vasoline on the slots/frames to prevent flashover of the solder. It is also necessary to clean everything very carefully as even with nickel plating it needs a god dollop of flux.


Mark
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billbedford
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby billbedford » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:34 am

David Thorpe wrote: This can clearly be seen in the top picture on page 4 of the article. On my etch all four brake units are the same length and as a result the inside ones, when correctly positioned, are well short of the wheel. And thirdly the corner tabs on the Mk.1 kt appear to have holes for the spring wire whileas my kit has an open gap from which the spring can escape.

DT


To adjust the inner brake shoe, just remove the parts marked in green, it may be better to this after the angle has been bent down and soldered:


BBK0801 8'  Fox Bogie frame.jpg


As for the corner tabs - a touch of solder between the bottom of the tab and the side frame?
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David Thorpe
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Re: Bill Bedford Coach Bogies

Postby David Thorpe » Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:26 pm

billbedford wrote:To adjust the inner brake shoe, just remove the parts marked in green, it may be better to this after the angle has been bent down and soldered: As for the corner tabs - a touch of solder between the bottom of the tab and the side frame?


Thanks Bill. Although I probably didn't explain it very well, I ended up doing just what you suggest regarding the parts marked in green and that resolved the problem although in a much less simple way than perhaps should have been the case. Initially I was confused and worried that I'd done something wrong - perhaps it would be a good idea to add something to the instructions for this particular kit to warn other people of the problem?

As for the corner tabs I fear that even a touch of solder as you suggest might well end up soldering the spring wire to the tab and I understand that that would not be a Good Thing. Howver, having said all that I've now completed the bogie and have to say that ir runs very well. :thumb

DT


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