Close coupling of coaches

John Fitton

Close coupling of coaches

Postby John Fitton » Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:27 pm

I have a large P4 system but have a minimum curve radius of 3 feet. Are there any ideas out there for close coupling of passenger cars? I have looked at the Keen system and it would seem to offer a lot of advantages over the Bachmann arrangement, but there don't seem to be any posts here. I have standardized on the Kaydee #5 coupler which does not cause interaction between coupled vehicles, although I have to say the Bachmann arrangement, although it may work for OO, seems to interact with the bogie. Specifically, is the Keen system compatible with P4?

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Tim V
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby Tim V » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:17 pm

Yes, I have successfully used the Keen centre couplings in P4 on 3' radius, they were the only ones I could get to work.

how the couplings are fitted, in this case to the TOP of a Comet underframe.
IMG_2623.JPG
IMG_2623.JPG (38.91 KiB) Viewed 10423 times


linking through a hole in the floor.
IMG_2624.JPG
IMG_2624.JPG (44.98 KiB) Viewed 10423 times


Because if you use them under the floor as recommended, they go too low and look unsightly like this, and the tops of the wheels come into contact with the couplings, leading to derailments.
IMG_2641.JPG
IMG_2641.JPG (59.94 KiB) Viewed 10423 times


As you can see invisible behind the buffers, which stay in contact, even around 3' radius curves.
IMG_2642.JPG
IMG_2642.JPG (67.89 KiB) Viewed 10423 times


I know there are some repairs needed to these coaches, but they are not normally seen this close up!
Tim V
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John Fitton

Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby John Fitton » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:23 pm

Tim,

Thanks for the reply. It looks like a simple conversion, with - important - no interaction with the wheels or bogies. I have train lengths up to sixteen cars, weighted to 7 ounces each.. Hopefully they are ok in tension!

It looks like you have the standard Keen coupler - any idea if knuckle or buckeyes work? The Keen system seems so good it's remarkable it's isn't used more often...

Thanks again.

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Tim V
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby Tim V » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:33 pm

I have only used the standard Keen couplings, all my coaches run in sets, and don't need to uncouple.
Tim V
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John Fitton

Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby John Fitton » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:35 pm

Thanks Tim, this is very useful, I will order some for trials.

John

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LesGros
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby LesGros » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:30 pm

jf2682 wrote:Tim,

... any idea if knuckle or buckeyes work? ...




I saw the inventor demonstrating a rake of coaches with a prototype version at Model Rail Scotland a few years ago, He was using Kadee couplings (#5s I think)

Cheers
LesG

The man who never made a mistake
never made anything useful

John Fitton

Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby John Fitton » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:57 pm

Thanks Les.

I will order a few sets and revert when I have trialled them.

John

martin goodall
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby martin goodall » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:33 pm

I have used Bachmann's own close-couplers on a three-coach set of BR Mark 1 corridor coaches with no problems at all. The main line exit from 'Burford' is on a 3-foot curve, and the carriage siding is even tighter than this.

The wheelsets are a straight replacment of the Bachmann 00 wheels - no compensation or springing, although I have added thin micro-rod to the mounting pads, one lengthwise, the other crosswise, so that the coach as a whole has a crude form of 3-point suspension, but this was just to stop any wobbles, not for road-holding.

Admittedly I use wheels with flanges slightly deeper than the standard P4 profile, but everything else (including crossing flangeways, check rail gaps etc.) is set to the usual P4 standards.

I have heard of other people having problems with these Bachmann close-coupling units, even in '00', so I don't know what it is I am doing right.

Martin Goodall

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Tim V
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby Tim V » Mon Dec 07, 2009 8:46 pm

martin goodall wrote:Admittedly I use wheels with flanges slightly deeper than the standard P4 profile, but everything else (including crossing flangeways, check rail gaps etc.) is set to the usual P4 standards.

Martin Goodall


Don't listen to such heresy John ;)
Tim V
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grovenor-2685
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby grovenor-2685 » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:21 pm

Here's how I do mine,
Image
Or for the text and other pics.
http://www.norgrove.me.uk/pullman.htm
See here for operation.

Regards
Keith

John Fitton

Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby John Fitton » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:11 pm

Thanks everyone. I use MJT compensation on all cars, Gibson P4 wheels, and weighted to NMRA standards, so a model of the electric scot with 12 on weighs around 5 lbs. Absolutely no issues with road holding, can whizz around 3 foot curves at a scale ton. Keith - the pullman pic doent really show the arrangement. However, it looks as though you have cut the buffer beam so the kaydee nestles in nicely. are they arranged on the keen system?

John

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:56 pm

Keith - the pullman pic doent really show the arrangement. However, it looks as though you have cut the buffer beam so the kaydee nestles in nicely. are they arranged on the keen system?

No I don't use the Keen system, or the Hornby or Bachmann equivalents, just fix the KD to the floor and set the buffers back to the retracted position. I use MJT gangways and have to reduce the number of folds to keep the sliding friction between adjacent gangways low enough. Otherise they can be derailed by the gangways on reverse curves.
Keith

John Fitton

Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby John Fitton » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:59 pm

Thank you Keith, that is what it looks like, just had to check.

John Fitton

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John Bateson
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby John Bateson » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:17 pm

Like Keith I had the MJT connectors with some folds removed but in the end took them all off. I have a few of the Masokits offerings - has anybody tried these for BR and LNER coaches
John
Slaving away still on GCR stuff ...
Avoiding the soaps ...
http://www.greatcentralmodels.co.uk

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:19 pm

Thank you Keith, that is what it looks like, just had to check.
If you follow the link I gave (perhaps not obvious between the photos) that does give rather more detail.
Regards
Keith

John Fitton

Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby John Fitton » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:25 pm

Thanks Keith, I have read your Norgrove sidings work with great interest. What is the minimum radius for the full length cars? I have a 3 foot minimum. pushing it a bit for 75 foot Mk 3s!

John

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:50 pm

My current minimum is about 3ft 4in but they did go round a couple of tighter sections I used to have. I don't have any Mark 3s but i don't really see why they should not work, just needs a bit of experimenting. The US prototype modellers run those huge 86ft cars round similar curves.
The main problems come with differential overhang through crossovers and similar situations where there is not much of a transition. I get most of the problems with Co-Co diesels coupled to 4 wheel wagons.
Regards
Keith

John Fitton

Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby John Fitton » Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:31 pm

Thanks Keith, I'll experiment with the Keens and see how they work out.

John.

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Russ Elliott
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby Russ Elliott » Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:33 pm

Tim V wrote:Don't listen to such heresy

Sounds more like a conspiracy, Tim.

John Fitton

Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby John Fitton » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:18 pm

Martin Goodall replied that he uses drop in replacement wheelsets into Bachmann bogies. I am at work right now, but as I recall the bogies aren't wide enough for the standard axle length, or even for P4 wheels. Am I missing something here?

David Knight
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby David Knight » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:04 pm

Bachmann Mk1 bogies will take Gibson wheelsets with a bit of filing. They need to be thinned out around the axlebox area plus a bit of creative carving to clear the wheels. Not all together satisfactory from an aesthetic standpoint but if your track is in decent nick they do work. This also applies to the Mk1 suburbans BTW

HTH

David

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:45 pm

Martin Goodall replied that he uses drop in replacement wheelsets into Bachmann bogies. I am at work right now, but as I recall the bogies aren't wide enough for the standard axle length, or even for P4 wheels. Am I missing something here?

That depends, generally the B1 bogies are wide enough but need a bit of trimming to the brake shoes. It also helps to V-slot the axleboxes a bit at the bottom so you don't need to force the sideframes out so much to get the axles in.
Commonwealth bogies are often rather tighter, some are Ok some not, there must be more than one tool.
The B4 bogies are generally narrow and need some plastic removing from the inside.
At least that's what I found on my fleet.
Regards
Keith

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Mike Garwood
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby Mike Garwood » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:17 pm

He's not the only one to do this, Steffan Lewis admitted to doing it on Aberhafren...shock, horror. All those coaches, 13 up I think it was, behind the Castle were Bachmann with just drop in wheels and ran superbly. I don't recall a single fall off when I watched the layout for a couple of hours at Scale4 some years back.
As to the close coupling of coaches, that industrious chap Bill Bedford came up with a rather nifty close coupling.

Couplings2.jpg


Openside couple.jpg


Don't know how much or when they'll be in stock...but I have ordered a lot of 'em! And of course these were the first sets that Bill had etched. For the un-enlightened amongst us...there are (of course) no fitting instructions with these. But its not rocket science to get them to work well.

Mike

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grovenor-2685
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Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 8:58 pm

Not close enough for me. ;) Those gangways should be touching. Which is why the solid mouldings need to be removed and something flexible provided. My personal take on this, its one of my pet topics, for me the inter-coach distances have to be as close as possible to scale and the gangways should touch. Aberhafren was a sinner in this respect, the trains ran fine but they looked terrible to me with huge gaps between the coaches. Same goes for most of the trains on Mostyn although they mostly fill theirs with excess gangway. Its a personal thing I guess.
And with pullman gangways as on Mk1s the gangway does the pushing for you so the coupler only has to deal with the pull, although my KDs will go into push mode if the load is heavy enough to compress the gangways, as in pushing uphill with more than 2 or 3 coaches.
Keith

ClikC

Re: Close coupling of coaches

Postby ClikC » Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:14 pm

Has anyone tried using the Sergent Engineering Buckeye couplings?

http://sergentengineering.com/

The Type E couplers look far more realistic to my eye and the appeal of a lot less slop compared to kadees sounds good on paper, but I have no idea about how they would scale for 4-mm. I know the British Buckeye is 3/4 sized version of the MCBA coupler in the US, which the Type E is later derived from. So in theory there should not be that much in it...

I may order a few pairs for my yet unconverted Bachmann BG's.


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