S.E.&C.R coach crimson

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Andy W
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S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby Andy W » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:12 pm

I've built a couple of Roxey coach kits including a grande vitesse to run circa 1908. I've sprayed them with Phoenix S.E.&C.R coach crimson. However, they look quite dark and brown - not as red as what little reference I can find. I know this is an area of debate - but do any of the more southern minded out there know if I'd be better off giving them a coating of something nearer to Midland crimson lake?
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billbedford
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby billbedford » Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:19 am

My understanding is that Midland coaches were a brighter red than those of other railways that used crimson lake. This, at the time, was put down to Derby using a better quality of varnish, but there may have been other factors.
Bill Bedford
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Guy Rixon
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:40 am

I also have a problem with the Phoenix colour: I think it's too blue. Notably, it doesn't match the contemporary, hand-coloured postcards from the Wainwright era; there's a couple of those on eBay at present.

My understanding, based on memory of discussions in the SEC Society back in the 20th century, is that the painting evolved progressively from the SER specification as the SECR tried to save money. It may have become redder and possibly ended up as a dull, brown colour. This could be due either to cheaper pigment - more iron oxide, less alizarin crimson - or fewer coats of varnish as Bill suggests. Certainly, the original, lake finish needed many coats.

It's possible that the Phoenix colour matches the SER colour quite well, is less appropriate for 1908, and significantly wrong for the late Wainwright/early Maunsell period. I'm thinking of repainting my unfinished stock in something nearer the colour on the postcards. I have one coach that I accidentally painted in the SECR Indian Red, the colour intended for the loco frames, and that is an intermediate between the purple and the Midland red; it would save mixing a colour.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Jun 14, 2015 11:13 am

It's also important to consider the effect of the lining. These two were painted with the same paint, from the same mix in the same painting session, but the lined one seems lighter and brighter to me. But still not very red.

lcdr-pvb-1-cropped.jpg
GV-van-1-edited.jpg

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Andy W
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby Andy W » Sun Jun 14, 2015 1:11 pm

Thanks all. I'll take some snaps and post them. I think I'm going to do a light MR over spray.
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beachboy
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby beachboy » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:25 am

Andy,

One can mix a Black Grey, & Red to derive SECR Coach colour c. one / two thirds.
Paynes Grey, and Cadmium Red mixed arrives at the colour tone in the painting by Nigel Digby ( BRM ). To vary will add a richer hue to a pure mono-toned flat finish. PP colours match a 1:1 paint sample, but not if it is scaled down 76 times, because of the lack of light on the subject, and thus appears darker.

If your existing colour lacks a red tone, simple add more red to the denoted PP colour, thin & lightly overspray at a progressive higher angle. The original colour will still be there, but with a warmer red hue. Vary the amount of red from a v. small amount.
You could even finish with an thin orange mix added V. thinned.

Until Cadmium was sourced as a pigment, existing red colours lacked permanence, and would vary, fade and change tone.
Even cheaper pigments used on more modern cars have faded, or degraded with time.

A thick varnish with say linseed oil will darken, and change the colour tone in this case towards a brown hue.

Lake, again is mainly a Black Red mix which significantly vary's depending on the mix value, and pigment being sourced at a given period in time.

Steve.

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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby JimF » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:58 am

SECR coach color has been discussed on the SECR Yahoo Group. The Bluebell Railway holds a couple of panels from coaches in original colors, both SECR and LBSC. Both colors are described as more dark brown, than a red shade.

Jim F

williambarter
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby williambarter » Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:05 am

I wouldn't want to sound authoritative about SE&CR coach maroon, but I think it's fairly clear from the evidence that there was a change in the coach colour during WW1, along with the change to a loco livery of grey.

What that brown actually was is open to debate.The panels on the Bluebell have been described to me as being more like plain chocolate than milk chocolate. That is much what appears in a painting of troops leaving Victoria, in the NRM.

Holcroft in Locomotive Adventure calls it "chestnut", and as he then uses "Umber" to describes the LBSCR, he clearly isn't seeing them as identical as has sometimes been suggested. Besides, the context is a display of alternative liveries, and why display identical "alternatives"?

But there is also a theory that the WW1 et seq colour was simply a less varnished and thus more weather worn version of the pre-war colour. I Know someone who thinks he originated this theory and now wishes he hadn't! But on a recent visit to the Bluebell carriage works, that is exactly how remnants of colour found on some LCDR vehicles were described.

Incidentally, I gleaned from a recent Radio 4 programme that our word "maroon" comes from the French "Marron", meaning "chestnut". Apparently until the mid-19th century the word did imply brown of some sort rather than the purplish colour it means today. Just to add confusion.

William

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Andy W
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby Andy W » Sat Jul 04, 2015 2:01 pm

I've re-sprayed the secr stock I mentioned. I may have gone too red now? Anyway it seems to be a bit better match to those on the Bluebell http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/cw_news/3360.html

Not good pics but the best I could do. The vitesse roof has been re-painted due to spray seepage - so it's not a grading change.
Image

Image

Image

Image

The vitesse mark 2 isn't as bright as this in reality.

It'll be a while before I get to line and letter them though. That part of my production line remains clogged.
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Guy Rixon
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat Jul 04, 2015 4:50 pm

Andy - I looked at your model pictures and thought "ah, that's better". Then I looked the Bluebell pictures and thought "oh - they're very brown after all". Then I compared the first two Bluebell pics, showing opposite sides of the same vehicle looking different colours (different light, presumably). And I thought of my own queue of coaches to be painted and whimpered a bit. There doesn't seem to be a right answer.

I think your new colours are a win, just by the principle of least astonishment.

beachboy
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby beachboy » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:22 am

Andy,

To compare a zoomed copy of the Bluebell pic to your model. Appears you have a very close match to the black red lake mix colour used on the Bluebell van, given your models image is also zoomed . Possibly the flash unit of your camera, has imitated full sun light of The bluebell pic. Considering the colour we see is dependent on falling light value. Had a cloud appeared, you'd be looking at a different colour tone. I do not see any brown in the colour tone at all.

For a scale model, it will look darker when placed on the layout, because the black base cote will darken the intended colour.
Something figure and Military painters - and artists, pay more attention to, including the highlighting of areas that receive more falling light. Thus giving the model a scale structured appearance. But for some reason - not Railway modelers.

Your Vitesse van, with the light entering the fine louvrer's, appears to be asking for for a light wood interior to reflect back any light from a low level source.
And what ever happened to those correct see through Exactoscale Torpedo Vent castings not listed any more.

Stephen.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby Guy Rixon » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:06 pm

beachboy wrote:Your Vitesse van, with the light entering the fine louvrer's, appears to be asking for for a light wood interior to reflect back any light from a low level source.


Except that one can't usually see through the louvres on full-size vehicles (except by standing alongside and squinting along the plane of the slats). If one could, they wouldn't be weather-proof.

beachboy
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby beachboy » Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:30 am

Very true for some Guy. Although the model I have been correcting, has slat's.

Then, if the louvres angle of this vehicle was of such arrangement, that then leaves the Fidelity of the how old model kit open to question. Does it not ?



Stephen.

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Andy W
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Re: S.E.&C.R coach crimson

Postby Andy W » Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:46 am

When finished the model will have crumpled black tissue inserted to prevent light flow.
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