LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

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grovenor-2685
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LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:43 pm

I have not seen mention of these on here yet, so here is the one delivered by the postman this morning.
M45020M-1.jpg

M45020M-2.jpg
M45020M-2.jpg (70.86 KiB) Viewed 7502 times

Looks very nice, buffers a tad small, and not sprung but will make a very nice Engineers' Pet.
Rewheeling being first priority i expected the usual Bachmann drop in replacement, no such luck. Instead of the standard 26mm axle, Bachman have shortened it down to 23.5mm and pulled the bogie frames in to match, it uses copper strips for bearings, presumably for possible provision of lighting although it doesn't have any.
Bachmann LMS bogie-3.jpg
Bachmann LMS bogie-4.jpg

Fitting P4 wheelsets in these would require the bogie cutting into 3 and then re-assembling wider, possible but not the word's simplest task. So using an etched bogie frame looks like the best bet. The Bill Bedford design would probably be the easiest to fit, but as I don't have any 9 ft ones to hand, but do have some Masokits etchings and MJT sides in stock they will be the ones I use. You could use the Bachmann sideframes but they are rather lacking in releif with very skinny springs and axleboxes.
One thing to watch for, the stirrup on the bolster end was not glued on mine and fell off at the slightest touch, if it reaches the carpet it'll be gone. Pics here with and without.
Bachmann LMS bogie-2.jpg
Bachmann LMS bogie-2.jpg (54.44 KiB) Viewed 7502 times
Bachmann LMS bogie-1.jpg
Bachmann LMS bogie-1.jpg (64.53 KiB) Viewed 7502 times

Regards
Keith

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Mark Tatlow
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby Mark Tatlow » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:14 pm

I rather had my eye on one of these too; but I was going to badger Brian the shaw-plan Hanson first to get him to do replacement glazing as I think the Bachmann model is screaming out for this. Then I'll have a go and thanks for warning that some fresh bogie sides are going to be in order on a sprung bogie - a bit more for the Scaleforum shopping list!
Mark Tatlow

David Knight
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby David Knight » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:26 pm

Thanks for the information Keith. I have one on order so this will let me prepare ahead of time. Does Bachmann not make a suitable bogie or one that could be adapted from their other LMS coaches?

Cheers,

David

Mark Forrest
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby Mark Forrest » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:00 pm

David Knight wrote:Does Bachmann not make a suitable bogie or one that could be adapted from their other LMS coaches?


With some modification to the pivot the bogies from their 50' BG should fit (assuming it is still the same as the old Mainline one I've been looking at). Think these were available as spares at one time and may still be.
Last edited by Mark Forrest on Sun Aug 31, 2014 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:02 am

Interesting thought, unfortunately I don't have one of those so can't check your theory, I do have the Hornby version which has superb bogies, it would be nice if they were available as spares, athough the pivot arrangement is completely different so quite a bit of modifying would be needed. I have used the Masokits/MJT combo previously on the 42ft GUV so I know they run nicely.
Keith

JFS
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby JFS » Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:22 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:Fitting P4 wheelsets in these would require the bogie cutting into 3 and then re-assembling wider, possible but not the word's simplest task. So using an etched bogie frame looks like the best bet.
Keith


Hello Keith,

The arrangement of the bogie looks very similar to Bachmann's EMU bogie for which the society stores do a replacement bolster which is laser cut from plastic. I've not tried it for this vehicle of course, but for the 4 CEP and 2 HAP it worked a treat.

Just a thought and much easier than starting from scra ch of course...


Edit - just to add that those copper plated "spikes" not only provide electrical contact but also form side-bearers and some degree of secondary suspension. If you do away with them, some sort of replacement is needed otherwise there will be a "wobble" issue.

Best wishes,

Howard

Terry Bendall
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby Terry Bendall » Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:33 am

JFS wrote:The arrangement of the bogie looks very similar to Bachmann's EMU bogie for which the society stores do a replacement bolster


These are produced by Jonathan Buckie of Clockwork Ideas, and a Society member. I have used then for converting the Bachmann 2 EPB to P4 and they work well. They could probably be adapted for this saloon but it would not be difficult to cut out something similar by hand, or ask one of the laser cutting firms to make some.

JFS wrote:those copper plated "spikes" not only provide electrical contact but also form side-bearers and some degree of secondary suspension. If you do away with them, some sort of replacement is needed otherwise there will be a "wobble" issue.


I cut off the bearing parts of these and fitted 2mm brass bearings into the holes in the bogie side frames using my usual method of placing the bearing in the hole and heating it with a soldering iron to melt it into the plastic. The "spikes" were retained to asist with suspension. I found that the 2EPB ran well without any springing or suspension but some of course will want to go down that road.

There are of course some limits on where and when this vehicle ran, and it is different from the later BR built types, but I am sure that those who want to use one will know that. :)

Terry Bendall
Terry Bendall

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grovenor-2685
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:11 am

The arrangement of the bogie looks very similar to Bachmann's EMU bogie for which the society stores do a replacement bolster which is laser cut from plastic. I've not tried it for this vehicle of course, but for the 4 CEP and 2 HAP it worked a treat.

I do remember seeing those at Scaleforum a couple of years ago but in the absence of any information or even listing of them in the Stores list I have no idea whether they would help, but this bogie has the sideframes and bolster in one piece so there is no way to fix it without cutting it into pieces. Even Terry's idea of putting bearings directly in the plastic won't work, the frames are just to close together.

Edit - just to add that those copper plated "spikes" not only provide electrical contact but also form side-bearers and some degree of secondary suspension. If you do away with them, some sort of replacement is needed otherwise there will be a "wobble" issue.

The copper spikes just go through the floor into a void, and in the absence of any lighting, they do not make any contact with anything inside, hence take no part in the suspension or wobble control whatsoever. I did try a test fit of Mk1 bogies as the screw fitting looks the same, but it turns out that the diameter of the pivot on the saloon is less than that used on the Mk1s (3.4 mm compared to 4.5 mm) so although the bogies do go on they are unacceptably loose. The design may well be intended to use the copper strips for support if they are used for pickup I assume that there will then be springs bearing on top of the spikes, but that does not apply in this application. The underlying boss that does provide the wobble control is also reduced compared to a Mk1, 7 mm compared to 11.4 mm, but it still seems wide enough to keep the vehicle stable.
Thanks
Keith
PS Assembly of Masokits bogies in progress.

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John McAleely
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby John McAleely » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:23 am

grovenor-2685 wrote:
The arrangement of the bogie looks very similar to Bachmann's EMU bogie for which the society stores do a replacement bolster which is laser cut from plastic. I've not tried it for this vehicle of course, but for the 4 CEP and 2 HAP it worked a treat.

I do remember seeing those at Scaleforum a couple of years ago but in the absence of any information or even listing of them in the Stores list



Are they

EMU01 EMU Bogie frame spacer for Bachmann 4CEP £7.95 6 per pkt

Or is that something else?

Philip Hall
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby Philip Hall » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:03 am

As a fervent SR man myself perhaps I shouldn't be commenting on this! But it did seem a very nice model to have and I was tempted, until I read Keith's tale of the way they built it. It does seem that some of the design (and in this instance I use the word loosely) is completely bonkers. Bachmann have a perfectly usable LMS 9'0" bogie, possibly not as good as the Hornby one but still quite nice, and yet they produce this model with wheelsets designed for lighting which isn't there, and push the bogie frames in so the model looks, and is, wrong. It doesn't help us either, but even in 00 it might look a bit odd. And as Keith says, the detail on the frames is none too good either. Perhaps it was designed that way in the UK, but then again...

When I was in Norway a little earlier this summer we visited the Flam Railway, where they have a very nice little museum with a model of the terminus and some models for sale from the Norwegian manufacturer NMJ. I noticed that a model of an earlier prototype Flam locomotive had brake blocks in line with the wheels, nicely done, but that the most recent model had them in line but miles away from the wheels. This rang a few bells with stories I have heard about our UK models, the factories in China going their own way sometimes with strange results. So I found a catalogue (in Norwegian and English) and there in the introduction was an apology for delayed production, partly owing to changes in the Chinese factories, labour changes and that prices were going to go up because Chinese wages were doing the same. This sounded very familiar, and it would be interesting to know (although of course we will never find out) whether these anomalies are caused by design over here, or the factories interpretation of said design and lax control from here. We are not alone...

Philip

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grovenor-2685
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:49 am

EMU01 EMU Bogie frame spacer for Bachmann 4CEP £7.95 6 per pkt

i suppose so, I did look through the list a couple of times this morning and missed it, helps to have a number to search for! Anyway looking at the photo its unlikely to help with these LMS bogies, which I understand are used on the Porthole stock as well as this saloon.
Keith

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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby billbedford » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:56 am

Philip Hall wrote:As a fervent SR man myself perhaps I shouldn't be commenting on this! But it did seem a very nice model to have and I was tempted, until I read Keith's tale of the way they built it. It does seem that some of the design (and in this instance I use the word loosely) is completely bonkers. Bachmann have a perfectly usable LMS 9'0" bogie, possibly not as good as the Hornby one but still quite nice, and yet they produce this model with wheelsets designed for lighting which isn't there, and push the bogie frames in so the model looks, and is, wrong.


Err no.....

This the LMS welded bogie that Bachmann have used on their porthole stock.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

Philip Hall
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby Philip Hall » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:30 pm

Bill, I was thinking of the bogie Bachmann fit to their 50'0" BG that Keith mentioned, I've not seen any of the porthole stock.

Philip

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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:15 pm

I was thinking of the bogie Bachmann fit to their 50'0" BG that Keith mentioned,
It was Mark Forrest suggested that one, however, I note that Coachman on RMweb says that the older Bachmann/Mainline LMS bogies have the wrong axleboxes.
Regards
Keith

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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby Flymo748 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:58 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:So using an etched bogie frame looks like the best bet. The Bill Bedford design would probably be the easiest to fit, but as I don't have any 9 ft ones to hand, but do have some Masokits etchings and MJT sides in stock they will be the ones I use. You could use the Bachmann sideframes but they are rather lacking in releif with very skinny springs and axleboxes.
The attachment Bachmann LMS bogie-2.jpg is no longer available
The attachment Bachmann LMS bogie-1.jpg is no longer available

Regards
Keith


Hi Keith,

Are you after something that looks a bit like this?

IMG_8276.JPG


If you are, I'll knock off some more castings in the morning and send you a pair to play with. I'm interested in some thoughts of how well I can write instructions. I owe ChrisF a pair to test as well...

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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grovenor-2685
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:28 pm

Flymo,
That does look pretty much spot on, Alistair's design I assume, I do like testing instructions so thanks for the offer.
regds
Keith

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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby billbedford » Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:57 am

Flymo748 wrote:Hi Keith,

Are you after something that looks a bit like this?

IMG_8276.JPG


If you are, I'll knock off some more castings in the morning and send you a pair to play with. I'm interested in some thoughts of how well I can write instructions. I owe ChrisF a pair to test as well...


But the welded bogie would be better. Alistair did do the welded one didn't he........
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

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Flymo748
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:55 am

billbedford wrote:
Flymo748 wrote:Hi Keith,

Are you after something that looks a bit like this?

IMG_8276.JPG


If you are, I'll knock off some more castings in the morning and send you a pair to play with. I'm interested in some thoughts of how well I can write instructions. I owe ChrisF a pair to test as well...


But the welded bogie would be better. Alistair did do the welded one didn't he........


Hi Bill,

Same kit - by a clever bit of design by Alastair, you can build both by either pushing out rivets, or not but adding flanges.

It's all in the instructions - I just chose to build the riveted one first and had it to hand last night to grab for a photo. Actually, on re-reading the current draft of them, I think that I can make it even more clear what the two alternatives are, perhaps by italicising the paragraphs or similar. For the purposes of Keith, don't do #2, do #4 instead ;-)

Thanks for making me think on it again...

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

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Flymo748
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:23 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:Flymo,
That does look pretty much spot on, Alistair's design I assume, I do like testing instructions so thanks for the offer.
regds
Keith


The necessary has been popped in the post this morning ;-)

Cheers
Flymo
Beware of Trains - occasional modelling in progress!
www.5522models.co.uk

DaveHarris
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby DaveHarris » Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:41 pm

The forgoing posts regarding the Inspection saloon are interesting. Having purchased one, as a newby I was unsure on how to release the body from the chassis, what the detailing bits were and where they are supposed to fit on the coach. Before some of the excellent posts appeared on RMWeb I e mailed Bachmann and asked the questions. I was very surprised at the reply; which was to the effect that the coach is not designed to be taken apart (and that the hand rails on the side, which locate in both the body and the chassis are non removable), that if the ride height is too low then the brass strips which hold the axles should be fiddled with to obtain a better ride height, and that there is no spares policy for this item. Also that there was no perceived need to provide information to the locations for the detailing parts. Whilst accepting that I may be a bit nieve, I still feel that given the 'problems' highlighted by the posts on RMWeb this would indicate a lack of care/interest by those who designed the model as most of the areas getting comments could have been cured by the simple expedient of asking a few experienced modellers to look at pre production samples before committing to full scale production as most could have been avoided with a little additional information and thought, which would have been very helpful to all those who purchased the model, whatever scale they are working in.

John Fitton

Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby John Fitton » Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:08 pm

I suppose that with all these new track inspection coaches being snapped up we can expect to see a huge improvement in track quality!!

John Fitton.

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grovenor-2685
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby grovenor-2685 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:58 pm

The necessary has been popped in the post this morning
And arrived this afternoon, playing will begin.
Thanks Paul
Keith

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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby grovenor-2685 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:06 pm

Shortly after the last posting I did comparitive tests of the Masokits bogie and the 5522 bogie, as the two bogies need different mods to the coach to create suitable pivots I used a pair of old Kitmaster coaches as test beds.The 5522 bogie looks better while the Masokits version is sprung.
To get good running from the 5522 bogie I found it neccessary to keep the two halves in better alighment by fitting a torsion bar. After this both coaches performed satisfactorily on the layout.
I have now got around to fitting up the Inspection Saloon and decided to use the 5522 bogies. The coach floor is lower than standard and using the 5522 bolsters with the press studs as supplied put the ride height very high. I don't really like the press stud idea anyway so I have created a more conventional pivot pin that allowed the height to be lowered .
This has now been tested on the layout with good results and the bogies just need cosmetic completion and a coat of paint. Here are some photos of the state of play before painting.
LMS-bogie-3.jpg

bolster-1.jpg

bolster-2.jpg

Regards
Keith
Last edited by grovenor-2685 on Sun Dec 28, 2014 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Photos added.

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David Thorpe
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby David Thorpe » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:43 pm

The last pair of AW bogies I encountered was a 10' set. I must confess that I found them over fiddly and I ended up discarding them in exasperation. I replaced them with a set of Brassmasters bogies which were much simpler to put together and work very well indeed.

DT

DaveHarris
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Re: LMS Inspection Saloon by Bachmann

Postby DaveHarris » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:59 pm

Thanks for the info and pics of the bogie mods Keith

Dave H


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