Correct brown for GWR brown vehicles

[Guy Rixon]

I'm about to paint a GWR Monster CCT, aiming for condition of 1911. I'm assuming that these vehicles were always brown. Does anybody know if the brown for brown vehicles differed significantly from the Windsor Brown used on passenger stock?

I note that Precision sell, separately, "coach brown" and "freight-vehicle brown". The former, which I have seems to be Windsor brown, and I don't know what shade is the other or on which particular vehicles would appear. Perhaps brown vehicles counted as goods stock rather than NPCS?

[beachboy]

Guy,

Chocolate Brown. Which is a dark / earth shade of Umber.
The degree of varnish applied to non passenger stock would effect the colour tone of the brown, making it richer, or dull earthy shade.
Windsor Brown is adding black / blue to produce a very dark, almost black shade.
I believed this was a common description linked to mixing colours for early loco frames, but would look very dark or black in 4mm.

Precision Coach Brown is vg shade of colour to match the above description; and spray's well. Good old Humbrol also produce a vg shade of glossy chocolate.

As a footnote with Prec. Paints. I have often noted some variation to the colours mixed. For example, having just sprayed an Engineers wagon red oxide, from a recent tin of that descrition, produced a mid shade of brown. The old B54 tin ( over ) sprayed a much lighter colour that looks - red oxide.

Steve.

[martin goodall]

There is a persistent belief that the colour use for GWR Brown Vehicles was not the same as that used on the lower panels of Brown and Cream coaches. However, when I painted models with the correct Precision Paints colour (i.e. slightly different from 'Coach Brown') and then weathered them, it was impossible to detect any difference whatsoever between the two colours.

Those 'Brown Vehicles' that started life as goods stock were painted Grey until at least the early years of the 20th century, and were then gradually repainted in the non-passenger coaching stock livery, all of them (I believe) having been dealt with before the end of the First World War.

It is a moot point as to whether or not the non-passenger coaching stock livery was always Brown. Coaches were painted 'Chcocolate' (a dark red colour, or maybe reddish brown) from 1908 to 1912, and then 'Lake' (though not exactly the same colour as MR Crimson Lake apparently) from 1912 to 1922. 'Brown Vehicles' may have been painted in these colours at the relevant times, or they may have been painted Brown throughout - the truth has never been established.

[beachboy]

I think to ever determine a persistent belief of the practice of 100 years ago. Consider the enviroment of the day may help.
Most CME had little interest in what colour their coaches were painted, who in turn was under the watchful eye of a penny pitching Board of Directors. Whom I find it hard to believe, would approve an x brown for this, and a y for that. Only one brown for all, and one green for the engines.
Varnish can make a difference to the finished colour. Tree gums, grades of linseed oil, to too quicker drying spirit. Some of the oils could make the paint darker, or change the colour tint.
We have computer controlled synthetic paints which still require batch nos for exact matching. The paintshop foreman had to use natural sourced pigment pastes, oils, etc. that were made from imported materials from various Country's. Browns being from clays / earths, burnt to darken. Linseed oil of various grades that had a shelf life, that would produce a best, or inferior finish.
Paintshops with variable light, or even gas lite. No eyesight examinations.
If a Foreman had a batch of inferior paint, or oil going off, would his Directors be happy to throw it away. Or use it, not on Mr Churchward's Dreadnoughts, but no one will be interested in using it on that batch of Fish Vans ?
Was it not Churchward who was quoted as saying use tar to paint the coaches ?
I think the often quoted sightings of railway colours of varying shades of blue, brown, etc is not surprising. And therefore varying shades of brown may well have existed, and not be incorrect.
A lot less in error to making an exact model, than poor artwork / tooling, compromises or omissions that are the other half of completing it.

[Guy Rixon]

Steve and Martin, many thanks for the advice. The Monster shall have Precision coach brown.

I agree with Steve's idea about using up surplus and second-grade paint. I've always had suspicions that small batches of wagons built by the trade got the same grey as the last big order to go through the paint shop. Thus, 50 wagons for SECR, say, could come out in LNWR grey, MR grey, etc. depending on whoever ordered 1000 wagons at the same time. But it's only a guess.