Hi,
I am finnishing off an old MSE kit of a S&D Horsebox, c.1906.
The drawing included ( which contains several errors ), shows the 'butterfly' indicating gear fitted at the Grooms end.
From the sole pic I have of this vehicle, which is a side view, the indicator is not visible.
Some fittings on coaching stock were at waist level.
Most pics of Horseboxes & NPCS stock have the braking train pipe and vac. cylinders, but not always the alarm indicators.
Does anyone know of any criterea/reference that would help in ascertaining if this aspect would be fitted - please.
Web pics of restored S&D coaches do not appear to have these fitted, unless I am viewing the wrong end.
Steam heating with pipe removed - yes.
Also out of interest, does someome know as to what the seat cushions colour(s) may be ( blue !? ).
Thanks / Rgds, Steve.
Communication Alarm Fittings.
Re: Communication Alarm Fittings.
I've looked at horse boxes in my books of both MR and LSWR carriages. In both cases boxes built in the late 1890s are show with alarm gear fitted at the groom's end. I suspect the the alarm gear became a BoT requirement around this time and boxes that had be built without it were relatively quickly retro fitted. Interestingly the earlier MR boxes have thimbles for external alarm cords, so the timing of this conversion would depend exactly when a particular railway changed their alarm system.
Re: Communication Alarm Fittings.
Thankyou Bill, you are correct.
It appears cord lines were run thru eyelets or thimbles at or near the roof edge to make a connection into the guards compartment. And thus alert him to a problem. i assume a passenger would have to lean out of the window, and pull such cord. Fittings being both sides of the roof, to allow for carriage direction.
From the late 1800's the Vac. Brake Co had the idea of introducing a partial pressure reduction as a means to warn of a problem, linked to the indicators, to show which originating carriage. The cord method having moved inside.
Subsequently, the indicator rods were connected to a valve box, and the indicators / butterflies extended to the vehicle sides.
So, from the early 1900's, Co's started fitting this equipment. Variety shows some were fitted around the end steps where nec'y.
The BOT gave approval. But unsure if it was enforced.
Some S&D Midland style 6 wheel vehicles do not always reflect this. And fittings, incl end steps / rails vary. Mimicing the Clayton / Bain transition.
Some S&D Carriages have the mid waist non - extended indicators. Poss. as they are not visible in the pic, this may be relative.
Derek Mundy has drawn the higher extended version. He makes ref. to a works drawing. The NRM lists 800 to search, with at the time, no search method.
Why should i worry about such trivia. i guess its part of the enjoyment - and there's Sods Law.
I now find I have to fit two vac. pipes. One being for Westinghouse. Where would the H/box be going for this proviso ?
LSW Refridg'r Vans had this duel fitting.
Its a v. large box. I put a normal size horse next to it, and looks small in comparison.
Considering the horse is secured at the front would allow plenty of room to step around the mess behind for someone to clear up.
Rgds, Steve.
It appears cord lines were run thru eyelets or thimbles at or near the roof edge to make a connection into the guards compartment. And thus alert him to a problem. i assume a passenger would have to lean out of the window, and pull such cord. Fittings being both sides of the roof, to allow for carriage direction.
From the late 1800's the Vac. Brake Co had the idea of introducing a partial pressure reduction as a means to warn of a problem, linked to the indicators, to show which originating carriage. The cord method having moved inside.
Subsequently, the indicator rods were connected to a valve box, and the indicators / butterflies extended to the vehicle sides.
So, from the early 1900's, Co's started fitting this equipment. Variety shows some were fitted around the end steps where nec'y.
The BOT gave approval. But unsure if it was enforced.
Some S&D Midland style 6 wheel vehicles do not always reflect this. And fittings, incl end steps / rails vary. Mimicing the Clayton / Bain transition.
Some S&D Carriages have the mid waist non - extended indicators. Poss. as they are not visible in the pic, this may be relative.
Derek Mundy has drawn the higher extended version. He makes ref. to a works drawing. The NRM lists 800 to search, with at the time, no search method.
Why should i worry about such trivia. i guess its part of the enjoyment - and there's Sods Law.
I now find I have to fit two vac. pipes. One being for Westinghouse. Where would the H/box be going for this proviso ?
LSW Refridg'r Vans had this duel fitting.
Its a v. large box. I put a normal size horse next to it, and looks small in comparison.
Considering the horse is secured at the front would allow plenty of room to step around the mess behind for someone to clear up.
Rgds, Steve.
Re: Communication Alarm Fittings.
Coincidentally, I noted from a letter in the current RM, that a Shunter could apply the brakes by using the butterfly valve. Which may relate to why end handle(s) I have seen fitted to vehicles with no apparent purpose -i.e. no lamp irons, steps etc.
Steve.
Steve.
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Re: Communication Alarm Fittings.
beachboy wrote:I now find I have to fit two vac. pipes. One being for Westinghouse. Where would the H/box be going for this proviso ?
Rgds, Steve.
Possibly Newmarket, for either a race or the bloodstock sales - the Great Eastern engines largely used Westinghouse brakes.
Regards
Chris
Re: Communication Alarm Fittings.
beachboy wrote:I now find I have to fit two vac. pipes. One being for Westinghouse. Where would the H/box be going for this proviso ?
LSW Refridg'r Vans had this duel fitting.
The pre-grouping Westinghouse railways were the GER, LBSC and NER, all of which included important racecourses in their territory.
Re: Communication Alarm Fittings.
Thanks Chris & Bill. made a note for future reference.
It did occur me that a pic ' in use ' may exist in one of these Company era books, say - Station photographs.
I did look thru some Brighton books; and also using an E1 pic to scratchbuild the Westinghouse pipe fittings.
For some reason it has what appears to be an unused four way union on the upright part of the pipe - which is of thinner diameter. Vacuum v. compressed air pressure I assume derives the difference in size.
i noted that lamp irons are fitted at the grooms side end, and suspect they may also be fitted in a lower central location.
The Boxes are positioned mainly at the loco end. As a Guard must ensure a lamp is fitted at his brake end, i assume if the loco was uncoupled, a lamp may be fixed for sighting / safety. Though some Boxes have visible Irons fitted at both ends.
As I also read in RM of a Guy complaining of a lack of corrrect lamps.Then perhaps I need some etched lamps with micro magnets ?
Steve.
It did occur me that a pic ' in use ' may exist in one of these Company era books, say - Station photographs.
I did look thru some Brighton books; and also using an E1 pic to scratchbuild the Westinghouse pipe fittings.
For some reason it has what appears to be an unused four way union on the upright part of the pipe - which is of thinner diameter. Vacuum v. compressed air pressure I assume derives the difference in size.
i noted that lamp irons are fitted at the grooms side end, and suspect they may also be fitted in a lower central location.
The Boxes are positioned mainly at the loco end. As a Guard must ensure a lamp is fitted at his brake end, i assume if the loco was uncoupled, a lamp may be fixed for sighting / safety. Though some Boxes have visible Irons fitted at both ends.
As I also read in RM of a Guy complaining of a lack of corrrect lamps.Then perhaps I need some etched lamps with micro magnets ?
Steve.
Re: Communication Alarm Fittings.
Horse boxes in photos appear to mainly next to the engine because photographers liked to take photos of engines. Had brake vans been as popular then there would have been many more photo of boxes at the rear of trains.
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Re: Communication Alarm Fittings.
Then perhaps I need some etched lamps with micro magnets ?
I like this micromagnet idea, must give it a try.
Keith
Re: Communication Alarm Fittings.
Thought may be of help to such interested persons, including myself, having recalled checking out this detail some years ago.
Without making notes, time is wasted duplicating research, and nailed this to a mast.
The S&D pic of this H/Box has only four Torpedo Ventilators visible. No means of lighting for the groom apparent.
No oil lamp housing, gas cylinder, or electric battery. I have looked at numerous, including pre 1800 pics / drawings of various Co. H/boxes, and at least an oil lamp is fitted, with the separate reservoir.
From S&D pics, appears coaches were fitted with oil, then gas at a random.
The vehicle was built 1904, with end safety chains - no vacuum based alarm gear. As this gear was being progressively fitted from early 1900's. I guess when the chains were removed - alarm gear may be then fitted at Highbridge. Though for some reason the pic is denoted as being at Derby, looking freshly painted, and similar to the Midland style.
I mentioned above, mid waist alarm gear. This detail may not interest people, or just make models as told how to. But these fittings relate to switching on / off the gas supply, and a few Cos adapted later for the electrics re lighting. So piping / conduit will be apparent. Nothing to do with alarming the guard.
The Ratio 4 wheel coach has this end fitting. But the molded vacuum pipe is the correct shape of a Westinghouse pipe connection. I mentioned a union fitting on the upright piping. This is a shut off valve, the lever being to the right. Not apparent in most B&W pics. And would not cast in W/metal v. lost wax. I have seen a lot of pics with models fitted with two vac. pipes. Whereas the vac. & Westhouse are v. different in shape, size, & components.
Keith, Re magnets,
I picked up this usage by wargaming guys. Being used to interchange different weapons on flying type models.
If used for lamps. An ethereal effect may be acheived of drifting lamps upon a loco passing with a strong electro-magnet source?
Is there a paper that explains the use of lamps. The Guards van has the red one. The Loco various. But Coaches etc have Irons fitted in a variety of places, but no consistency ? The reasons being .....
I have a retired Southern Fireman living not far away I could try asking. But he always wants to change the subject to moan about his neighbours, can I fix this, or rather than spend money on gas, abscessed with burning anything. Or is that a life long habit of just being fireman?
Steve.
Without making notes, time is wasted duplicating research, and nailed this to a mast.
The S&D pic of this H/Box has only four Torpedo Ventilators visible. No means of lighting for the groom apparent.
No oil lamp housing, gas cylinder, or electric battery. I have looked at numerous, including pre 1800 pics / drawings of various Co. H/boxes, and at least an oil lamp is fitted, with the separate reservoir.
From S&D pics, appears coaches were fitted with oil, then gas at a random.
The vehicle was built 1904, with end safety chains - no vacuum based alarm gear. As this gear was being progressively fitted from early 1900's. I guess when the chains were removed - alarm gear may be then fitted at Highbridge. Though for some reason the pic is denoted as being at Derby, looking freshly painted, and similar to the Midland style.
I mentioned above, mid waist alarm gear. This detail may not interest people, or just make models as told how to. But these fittings relate to switching on / off the gas supply, and a few Cos adapted later for the electrics re lighting. So piping / conduit will be apparent. Nothing to do with alarming the guard.
The Ratio 4 wheel coach has this end fitting. But the molded vacuum pipe is the correct shape of a Westinghouse pipe connection. I mentioned a union fitting on the upright piping. This is a shut off valve, the lever being to the right. Not apparent in most B&W pics. And would not cast in W/metal v. lost wax. I have seen a lot of pics with models fitted with two vac. pipes. Whereas the vac. & Westhouse are v. different in shape, size, & components.
Keith, Re magnets,
I picked up this usage by wargaming guys. Being used to interchange different weapons on flying type models.
If used for lamps. An ethereal effect may be acheived of drifting lamps upon a loco passing with a strong electro-magnet source?
Is there a paper that explains the use of lamps. The Guards van has the red one. The Loco various. But Coaches etc have Irons fitted in a variety of places, but no consistency ? The reasons being .....
I have a retired Southern Fireman living not far away I could try asking. But he always wants to change the subject to moan about his neighbours, can I fix this, or rather than spend money on gas, abscessed with burning anything. Or is that a life long habit of just being fireman?
Steve.
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Re: Communication Alarm Fittings.
Thanks for the note re:magnets, I will source some to experiment.
Coaches have lamp irons because any coach may be at the rear of a train, not neccessarily the guards van, so the lamp irons are there for tail lamps. Similarly fitted wagons and vans could be moved as tail traffic and hence need tail lamps for which they mostly have lamp irons.
Regards
Keith
Coaches have lamp irons because any coach may be at the rear of a train, not neccessarily the guards van, so the lamp irons are there for tail lamps. Similarly fitted wagons and vans could be moved as tail traffic and hence need tail lamps for which they mostly have lamp irons.
Regards
Keith
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