NER Coaches and NPCS

billbedford
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby billbedford » Tue Sep 03, 2013 12:12 pm

DougN wrote:Thanks Bill, can you recommend a colour from humbrol or any other manufacturer? It is the one thing I have yet to get the hang of.... Colour... Sounds strange but it is a skill that some have and others don't. I really can't match colour but I may be able if you have a decent photo. Also it is one thing here in Melbourne is we have a very white clear light compared to the UK. I find the light is a bit more yellow than here. Another problem is colour memory is highly variable along with photo film can have a hue depending on heap of things. So if you could suggest a photo on line or a book (slightly harder to come by) I would appreciate it.


Doug
The colour I used when I painted the last LNER carriage was Humbrol Tan. Unfortunately this is no longer in the Humbrol range. The nearest is No62 Leather which is darker and less orange than Tan.

Unfortunately all these coaches had disappeared before colour film emulsions had become stable enough to accurately render these colours. Though looking at photos of preserved LNER teak and Thompson coaches will give you a good idea of the sort of colour you should be aiming for.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

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jayell
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby jayell » Tue Sep 03, 2013 2:45 pm

Have a look at this page

http://www.lnersvrcoachfund.org.uk/teak_set.html

quite a lot browner than your 'pink' coaches

John

DougN
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DougN » Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:33 am

Bill is right I had actually painted then in the leather. So I will repaint the question is when. I have the precision colours and the cherry colours so I will try one in each...
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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45609
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby 45609 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:36 pm

billbedford wrote:The colour I used when I painted the last LNER carriage was Humbrol Tan. Unfortunately this is no longer in the Humbrol range. The nearest is No62 Leather which is darker and less orange than Tan.


Which Humbrol Tan are you thinking of Bill? The gloss Tan (#9) is still available isn't it? For me using a gloss paint (sprayed) is a benefit for the application of decals and/or lining. Although the latter is not really relevant for Doug's coaches.

Morgan

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Andy W
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby Andy W » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:30 am

Doug, am I right in thinking these coaches are to be "grained"? If so then rather than a respray you could just give them a light dusting with tan - rather than any stripping back and starting again. Even if some of the present coat is visible it would add to the effect. Or were these coaches a flat colour - I'm not familiar with the style at this period.
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DougN
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DougN » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:34 am

Ealing my understanding is the NER coaches during LNER days ended up painted just a boring brown. The question is what is the colour of the boring brown? :shock:
Doug
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billbedford
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby billbedford » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:01 am

Not quite right. Mainline stock, which would have included some of these clerestories, was painted with mock teak up until the early 30s. As the sets were replaced by newly built stock they were painted plain brown.

Maybe if you think of this colour as 'boring' then you are going to choose a duller shade than was actually used.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
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DougN
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DougN » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:45 am

Interesting Bill, I can paint the coaches quite easily into fake teak. I have done the finish a number of times on Ian kirk kits many years ago. They don't really match the new Hornby as the finish is so beautifully applied... Time I just wish I had more to do some modelling.
Doug
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DougN
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DougN » Sun Sep 08, 2013 8:23 am

Finally I did some modelling on a fantastic Spring day... In the garage I managed to spray paint the undercoat onto the coaches of the light tan colour from Cherry paints then brush paint some golden teak over the top! so tell me what you think of these 3....
DSC_0469.JPG


a Closer photo
DSC_0470.JPG


these were fast and nasty photos so, if you think that I have got some where near the right colour... I will do a few more photos.

I will have to disassemble the roofs to paint the clerestories!

Today though as usual it takes longer to set up the airbrush & clean it than to do the items to be painted.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

David Knight
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby David Knight » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:42 pm

Probably a bit late with this but there's an interesting thread on RMWeb about teak
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index. ... shed-teak/

HTH

David

beachboy
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby beachboy » Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:22 am

Doug,

I think your on the right track.
When I look at the GN 1st/3rd No2701 from John Lewis link. In my mind after filtering out the gold lining, nos fittings and any blackish paint; I see not a streak of brush lines, but a mottled contrast of a base colour ( using populat Humbrol Nos ) H63, then say H118, contrasting / darkening to H26 & H29. Being wood there is no definative colour. Some panels add interest in contrast by dark & light wood colour. I would be inclined to use acyrlics here, as they dry quicker, and can blend the colours together in very thin cotes. Spray on the base colour and dry. Then with a small brush make small dilute blotch patterns akin to washes. Take a ceramic white tile. Load a small amount of paint with thinner ( water ) a brush accross the tile. You will see the paint becomes thinner / weaker in content. This can be move or floated around the area / panel till happy & let dry. Its very suttle and can be built up on till happy. But being acyrlic - say ten mins in warm climate. Once the colours have all been applied, I would then take a thin wash of the base colour over the lot to tie the colours together. Care & patience.

It may be the brighter Aus. light, but your models reflect a distinct orange base. But the mottle effect is there, except in one or to areas which may have over contrasted compared the natural blend in wood. You could take Leather H62, H70 etc & build on a more Redwood colour. Once the lining, Nos & shiny varnish goes on should look good.
I will say the light on the GN coach does suggest a darkening of the natural colours.

Steve.

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Will L
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby Will L » Mon Sep 09, 2013 5:40 pm

I think there is a strong tenancy to overcomplicate the production of "teak" livery coaches. In my mind its is one of the easiest liveries to re produce for a variety of reasons. That is assuming your prepared to forgo the lining which I think disappears into the general coach finish for all but the most recently painted coaches. To start with, the coaches actual varied in colour quite markedly, particularly as they get older, so no one colour will ever be right, although many of them wont be wrong either. Then they are a grained, so a finish showing fine brush marks is actually a good way of reproducing of the real thing. You can produce this effect by applying a brush marked layer of a darker colour over a lighter background, or visa versa and I have seen both methods work well. For anything other than top flight express services on the ECML they all need a good sooty wash over the top anyway.

My methods has always been to use enamels. I spray the body an even coat of a fairly dark cream approaching yellow, follow up with a light smearing of crimson. I then to brush on a darkened version of one of the available teak paints. This is brushed on using a fairly coarse flat brush kept for the purpose, the paint is brushed until it shows slight bright marks that just allowed the under coulur to show through, to start with these brush marks will fad away but keep at it a bit longer and as the paint dries they become permanent. Slight differences in the thickness of the paint layer give rise to a variation in overall colour. You don't need the paint to be too thick or the brush marks will look like brush marks and not graining. Once you have a pleasing effect, leave it to dry then give it a soot wash as they are always dirtier than you think.

For the under frame, which is were we came in, the darkened teak colour can go on neat. I mix this colour fresh for each coach so they are all different, when you get your eye in you might like to add a little crimson to the mix to produce a slightly red-er result. The really anal may wish to vary the mix as they go along and do different parallels with different mixes.



Will

DougN
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DougN » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:04 pm

Thanks Will and Steve. I did go for the brush marked effect over the lighter base coat. I have an idea that dry brushing some lighter of the 2 cherry paints along with a little more dry brushing of the precision teak might gain more colour depth on the coaches. Will as you rightly stated we are trying to use brush marks as the grain effect. I previously have done it on kirk kits.... When I didn't know how to paint things very well. I must be getting better at getting an even finish rather than the grained effect. I will keep persevering for a while. Back to you all when I have had a go at the next installment.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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jayell
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby jayell » Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:19 pm

Years ago I had some card kits for GER 4 wheel coaches, no idea where they came from and I never actually assembled them into bodies but I did paint the sides and ends using something called 'teak scumble' if memory serves me correctly.

I can't remember where I got this paint but I'm pretty sure I ended up with a colour more brown than orange and because it was brushed on the parts definitely had a grained appearance.

It must have been something like this though
http://www.decoratingdirect.co.uk/viewprod/r/RATOS/

and I see they suggest an orange basecoat. Tin sizes (500 ml) are a bit big though for modeling purposes.


John

DougN
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DougN » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:00 pm

As per the D17... again the camera was out so I took a photo of my pigeon van I am still playing around with finishes and this has yet to get the red oxide to the sole bars. (I went for a light over paint so as to allow for good coverage of the oxide when I get around to it)
DSC_0713.JPG


I think it is looking lighter so I think this is on the right road now!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

David Knight
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby David Knight » Sun Jun 01, 2014 3:50 pm

Doug,

The underside of the pigeon van looks like you've been using some etchings to supplement the kit bits. Could you tell us which bits you used?

Cheers,

David

DougN
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DougN » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:37 am

Hi David,

I haven't used anything that wasn't in the box. It is a D&S kit to begin with. From one of the local modellers who passed away last year. I know that there is a kit from Parkside. I have seen a friends version. I prefer D&S as I like to make things from brass. Though the parkside one is quite nice. My friend also sent me some photos of the prototype at the North Norfolk railway which helped as it seems the battery boxes can be behind the steps or not... which I thought was odd for access I would have put it opposite!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

DougN
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DougN » Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:59 am

Hello all. Thought I would resurrect this thread as today I was given a box of old 4mm models and bits from a modeller that has gone 7mm. One of the things was the coach below... Pretty much everything else was GWR and even some Broad gauge! Any how one thing that sufaced was a 6wheel NER coach which has been put together but I am not sure about the chassis arrangement. The wheels are sprung but I am not sure about the level of movement in the centre axle will be enough for normal running through say a B6 turnout. The thought that I had was the other options to complete the coach. I think it will also compliment the other coaches I have. Oh it has sprung buffers though one has succumbed to rust and remements still exist but I thin new spring and head will be required!
image.jpeg


The box does contain the castings and foot boards which have never previously been fitted. The kit I know dates from at least the '80's and has now been through at least 3 owners. The assembly was done in the '90's so now it is seriously matured.. To now head towards completion.

I feel lucky to have been given it as we all know how hard D&S kits are to Aquire let alone for free.
Doug
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DougN
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DougN » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:51 am

Well the above coach is a dia 15 all third. Others will realised I have asked for any instructions people have filed away. Aly how I sat down over the Christmas break... ok I had 3 weeks off which the plan was to do nothing much but in this I found the enthusiasm to complete this coach. I have done a fair bit and I am putting it into early LNER livery. The interesting thing is the roof there is not many photos of these coachs that I found or asked for if any one had any. I found a couple of interesting shots in late NER to early LNER period in the Ken Hoole book on NER branch lines. I have based the roof on a couple of those photos that showed just the lamp tops, with no vents which are shoulder or mid way from the centre line of the roof to the gutter. Another thing that I can not find is if there was any gutter or moulding to direct rainwater away from the doors.
image.jpg


I am a littl surprised how grotty the windows came out in that phot as it I should not noticeable generally.

The coach from what I can make out needs to have vacuum and air breaking along with steam heating pipes on the ends. As the chassis still needed some work I am not overly concerned about fitting these. Also I have to do some gas pipe runs to the roof to feed the lamps!
Now does anyone have any idea on the gas run through the safety cord? Ie pull safety cord the gas is cut off and the brakes are applied?
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

billbedford
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby billbedford » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:23 am

Couple of points here....

I doubt very much that this coach would have had a 'teak' livery. It would be either NER lake until sometime in the 20s and then LNER coach brown afterward.

The brakes would have been either Westinghouse before c1930 or vacuum after that date. It would be very unlikely to have carried dual brakes.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
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DougN
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DougN » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:03 am

Bill from what I have read there was a fast change to the new livery by the companies on grouping. Once that started wearing the change in the 30's was to overall brown for cost savings. Also this would have been few and far between as the 6 wheel coaches would have been on the way out by that time.

As I said above some of the coaches were dual brakes as there was 3 hoses on the end of the coach in the photo. I have also found that the clerestories were also dual braked for a time. I also went through the research trying to find the appropriate "lake" which every one said was rover damask red. As Australia doesn't have that many rovers to find a auto paint supplier that could supply less than 1litre would be rather excessive for one coach. Though if there was more supplies out there I may be tempted to add another or 3 as the dia 15's were the most numerous at 832 built!
Refer to NER record vol 2 page 18 plate 1.14 shows 2 upright hoses, also pg 27 plate 1.33 shows the 3 hoses. Also plate 1.36 on pg 30

This is all very difficult to confirm fully as from what I have found in my limited publications but I am also not a member of the NER association they may have the information but it doesn't seem to be that available on the 'net.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

DavidM
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DavidM » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:17 pm

Doug,

BCS Auto paints in Sydney can supply automotive paint in smaller quantities and can ship 35mL bottles (for small repairs) by ordinary post, larger quantities (500mL or more) by road. They have formulae going back to the 1950s and claim to be able to match anything. You can also arrange to collect from your local Woolworths!

https://www.bcsautopaints.com.au

David

DougN
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Re: NER Coaches and NPCS

Postby DougN » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:24 am

Thanks David, I will keep that in mind. as you know it is one of the challanges here compared to the UK. I must admit the next time I get to Scaleforum I will be stocking up on paints, LNER greens, NER lake, Garter blue, and the various versions of teak. Once upon a time we were able to buy them here in Melbourne from Trainworld and British Train supplies. the former no longer stocks them and the latter has been gone for the best part of 20 years sadly.

The internet has been a boon for getting some things but others are very difficult. As they say life moves on and nothing stays the same!
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling


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