Hornby Stanier to P4 around 3' curves

[Tim V]

Just acquired one of these. What a lovely model.

I'm modifying the brake gear per the EM society sheet 4.2.3 (which relates to a Maunsell coach but hey it looks pretty similar to me).

The P4 wheels just popped in. no modifications needed.

IMG_0825.JPG

Trying it round my 3' test track, it fell off.

First suspect was the centreing springs, which I removed, no joy.

I then found that the holes the bogie pivots run in were oval, imparting a centreing action onto the bogies. All such actions will cause the flange to ride up, off the rails (down Martin, no talk of EM flanges here!), so a quick run through with a reamer made the hole circular.

IMG_0824.JPG

[grovenor-2685]

Had this on my site for 4 years now, http://www.norgrove.me.uk/lms-bogie.htm
We didn't have a forum then
Still runs very well, although I don't actually get down to 3ft radius, just a tad under 3'6".
Regards
Keith

[Tim V]

Thanks Keith, but I'm talking about getting it round 3' curves rather than the specific modifications to P4, so it's a different subject.

[grovenor-2685]

So did making the pivot hole round solve the problem?

I don't remember any issues with the bogie pivots on my one so I would expect it to be fine until the wheels start rubbing on the inside of the solebar.
Regards
Keith

[Tim V]

I'm pleased to say that it did work. The wheels show no sign of rubbing on the inside of the solebars.

[martin goodall]

I bought a Hornby Stanier full brake some time ago and simply swapped over the wheels (no springing or compensation), but to prevent wobbling I did put some 0.5mm plastic rod across one bogie support pad and ditto lengthwise on the other.

The vehicle runs round a 3-foot curve on my P4 layout with no problems. In fact the running of this vehicle could be described as 'smooth as silk'.

But then [you can guess what's coming next!], the wheels I used were re-gauged EM wheels from Kean-Maygib (14mm steel disc). Because the EM wheelsets, when re-gauged to P4, are 0.5mm wider overall than a P4 wheelset, I did find it necessary to shave a very small amount of plastic off the insides of the bogie sideframes.

The only problem I had was in initially dismantling the Hornby bogies. Unfortunately, I did not find Keith's very helpful write-up until after I had done the job.

[Steve Carter]

I bought a Hornby Stanier full brake some time ago and simply swapped over the wheels (no springing or compensation), but to prevent wobbling I did put some 0.5mm plastic rod across one bogie support pad and ditto lengthwise on the other.

The vehicle runs round a 3-foot curve on my P4 layout with no problems. In fact the running of this vehicle could be described as 'smooth as silk'.

I’m sure I've seen this principle mentioned somewhere before but I think I’m having a “senior moment”. Would you care to elaborate a bit more on this and how please Martin?

Thanks

Steve

[martin goodall]

In answer to Steve's query, this is a technique which can be applied to bogie vehicles in any scale or gauge, even if you are not converting them from the gauge to which they were manufactured. So even '00' modellers using coaches straight 'out of the box' may benefit from this minor adaptation.

There can sometimes be a tendency for a bogie vehicle which is not fully compensated to wobble as it runs along. Obviously, if you use coach compensation units as supplied by (for example) the S4 Society or MJT, they have 3-point suspension incorporated within the design, and the problem will not arise. It is most commonly encountered with RTR stock or with other bogie vehicles on which the bogies are mounted on flat rubbing plates.

The object of the exercise is to produce a crude form of three-point suspension for the vehicle as a whole (even if, as in the case of my own RTR conversions, the bogies are not themselves compensated). The intention is to allow one of the bogies to rock from side to side, but to prevent the other bogie from doing so. An added feature (not essential but possibly helpful) is to arrange for the other bogie to be able to rock fore and aft on its mounting.

The method I use for RTR coaches, is simply to glue short lengths of 0.5mm plastic micro-rod on the bogie rubbing plate. At one end of the coach, these are arranged lengthwise, so the bogie will rock from side to side on this mounting. At the other end of the coach, the pieces of micro-rod are arranged crosswise, which not only levels up that bogie to the same height as the first bogie but enables the bogie to rock for-and aft whilst preventing it from rocking from side to side. These arrangements do not, of course, interfere with the bogies turning on their mountings.

There are possible variants on this arrangement, depending on the original design of the bogie pivot. The precise details are unimportant, provided you achieve the result of allowing one bogie to rock from side to side, whilst preventing the other bogie from doing so. This will prevent the vehicle from wobbling as it negotiates the track on your layout, even if the bogies themselves have no compensation.

In some cases, using 0.5mm micro-rod as described will raise the ride height of the coach by 0.5mm. This should generally not be a problem, unless the buffer height was already on the high side before you started.

I am sorry if this description is a bit vague, but it depends on the precise design and construction of the vehicle as to how you go about modifying the bogie mountings. I can, however, confirm that on all the bogie vehicles I have adapted in this way, the process has proved to be quick and easy - it can be accomplished in less than 10 minutes.

[David Knight]

What you are describing, Martin, sounds like the same principle involved here; http://www.proto87.com/model-railroad-s ... orial.html

Cheers,

David

[Steve Carter]

Thanks for that Martin
I will have to investigate on my Hornby Maunsell's.
Hope you all have a great New Year
Steve

[nberrington]

What you are describing, Martin, sounds like the same principle involved here; http://www.proto87.com/model-railroad-s ... orial.html

Hi David - have you (or anyone else) tried these car stabilizers on coaching stock? Sounds like a fantastically simple idea!

Neil

[David Knight]

Hi David - have you (or anyone else) tried these car stabilizers on coaching stock? Sounds like a fantastically simple idea!

Neil

Hi Neil,

No. I am aware of them and some day (!?) will try a set on my North American stock. They have been discussed on E4um, opinions are mixed but I'm not sure how many of the nay sayers are objecting on the basis of evidence or just on theoretical grounds. I just put the link up because I knew it was there and thought I might as well share it.

Cheers,

David

[grovenor-2685]

Hi David - have you (or anyone else) tried these car stabilizers on coaching stock? Sounds like a fantastically simple idea!

Andy Reichert's washers are just a commercialised version of what Martin Goodall described in detail above. The principle of ensuring a 3 point suspension has been used since the inception of P4. With bogie stock 3-point suspension requires one bogie to be free to rock laterally and the other not so that the vehicle can negotiate track twist without the body taking a permanent lean on the flat. Whether you use a ridged washer, plastic rod or just file the bolster to an appropriate shape the result is the same. Different bogie and bolster designs need different solutions and some work just fine as they come out of the factory.
Regards
Keith

[Philip Hall]

I will have to investigate on my Hornby Maunsell's.

Steve - take care here as the Hornby Maunsells are already a touch too high, although it hardly notices. I have found that with true wheels and the Hornby sprung close coupling they run beautifully anyway. Not a trace of wobble.

Philip

[Steve Carter]

Hi Philip

Many thanks for the warning.

I am conscious that they a touch high and was concerned when Martin mentioned that using 0.5 mm rod increases the height by the same (obviously!) so I intend to see how my converted coaches perform on St Merryn first before deciding where to experiment or not.

A Happy New Year to you.

See you soon

Steve

[Philip Hall]

Steve

I think I tested a four car rake of the Hornby Maunsells, solid gangways touching, all moving as one unit, on St Merryn not long after they first came out. Had them (literally) hurtling over the crossovers without a problem, smooth as you'd like. Mind you, you don't have too many curves on St Merryn!

Peter Swift has lowered a rake for use on Wadhurst with a rigid bar between carriages, but a slight gap between the solid gangways. True wheels again and no wobbles.

Good luck,

Philip

[martin goodall]

What you are describing, Martin, sounds like the same principle involved here; http://www.proto87.com/model-railroad-s ... orial.html

Yes, that's it exactly. I wasn't aware that there was a commercially available component. But it's very quick and easy to do the same thing with micro-rod.

[Steve Carter]

First running report on my converted Hornby Maunsell 3-car set (KM wheels, brake gear modified as per the EMGS sheet 4.23, Keen System close-coupled buckeyes and floating corridor connections).

To watch my 3-car set “glide” through the reverse curves whilst being propelled from the main line into the St Merryn carriage sidings was a joy. No rock and rolling.

So with that bit proven I can finish the detailing and weathering etc.

Happy days!

Steve

[John Fitton]

Steve,

Last night I was experimenting with Keen couplers on some Mk 2D cars, but using kaydee couplers. I found the Keen buckeye couplers too tight, and connected the entire bodies of coupled cars together in the roll direction. Do you loosen up the tight fitting couplers, or do you have very flat track?

John.

[Mike Garwood]

Keen System close-coupled buckeyes and floating corridor connections

Steve
Any chance of some photos, I've never seen this set up.

regards

Mike

[Steve Carter]

I’ll take some photos when I get the chance and post them.

In the meantime check out the Keen System website at http://www.keen-systems.com/index.html Very good service as well.

The Keen System buckeye couplings were a straight replacement for the Hornby couplings on the intermediate vehicles. Just pull out the Hornby coupling and fit the keen buckeye direct into the pocket. It just needed a small bit of careful filing and checking to ensure that the buckeyes fit together without any play. The remainder of the Hornby coupling mechanism is used. See http://www.keen-systems.com/page2.html

The floating corridor connections are really easy to fit. You just remove the Hornby moulding and replace with the Keen resin one. Full, easy to follow, instructions are provided. See http://www.keen-systems.com/page3.html

Steve

[Tim V]

The Keen systems are very good (I swear by them) however they can be visually intrusive, so I'm looking forward to some pictures of how you did it.
How I did it can be seen on my old RMweb workbench thread, about halfway down the page at
http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic. ... &start=150

[Steve Carter]

Hi all.

I have taken some photos that I hope will show how I fitted the Keen System buckeye couplings and corridor connections.

I have not yet started to add any detailing etc. The coaches will be renumbered and become Set 193 eventually!

All the best.

Steve

Maunsell bogie underside.jpg

coupled.jpg

Corridor connection and buckeye.jpg

Coach end.jpg

coupled2.jpg

[Steve Carter]

Oh dear, close-up photography does have a tendency to show up things.

The body of the brake coach is not fully in position but I have to remove it again to detail the interior so I can fix it properly then.

Anyone got any suggestions on how to get rid of the “white” toilet windows and replace them with frosted?

Many thanks

Steve

[martin goodall]

I, too, have been impressed with the Keen close coupling system, and bought a couple of sets at Warley to play with. But like Tim Venton, I have reservations about their appearance when viewed sideways on (i.e. viewing the layout and rolling stock from close to track level).

I have in mind the possibility of adapting the Keen components I have bought to see if a slightly less conspicuous coupling can be devised while taking advantage of the ingenious close coupling system devised by Keen Systems.

If anyone else has tried this, I would be pleased to see their findings written up in this thread.

(Steve's photos are very helpful, and I should say that my reservations about the appearance of the Keen couplings do not extend to the buckeyes - I have in mind some of the other versions of the coupling mechanism, as I would not be using buckeyes myself.)