Blood and Custard

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Serjt-Dave
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Blood and Custard

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:54 am

Hi All. The time is drawing close that I will soon have to slap some paint on the rake of Bullied coaches I'm working on. Originally they were to be in BR Green but as I'm turning back the timeline for my layout to early to mid 1950's they will need to be Crimson and Cream. My problem is that as far as I can workout the Crimson strip at the top of the coach side is about 4" and then another inch and a half {approx} for the black and gold strip. Looking at the model of these Bullied coaches it's just about 4" from the cantrail to the top of the window frames, so no room for the black and gold strips. When they were in their Bachmann finishes they had the strips but no Crimson. Looking at some period images some Maunsell coaches, they seem to just have the crimson to the waist of the coach plus strips and then just cream all the way to the cantrail. Did this also apply to Bullied coaches with high windows?

Also they have rivets along the top of the windows which will make hand lining a real bugger to do.

Any help with this matter will be much appreciated. Thanks

Dave

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Tim V
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Tim V » Sat Dec 01, 2018 11:27 am

I don't remember where I got this from, and it's WR anyway!
Baugh coach paint dets.pdf
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Tim V

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:34 pm

Thanks Tim, I do have that anyway, it's where I got the measurements form. I did look at the St Merryn layout and they have a Bullied in Blood and Custard without the top strips and crimson {images below}.

Dave
stmerryn06.jpg
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John Palmer
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby John Palmer » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:25 pm

Yet it's clear that a significant number of Bulleid coaches did have a strip of carmine/crimson lake immediately below the cornice. This is certainly true of some (all?) of the Tavern cars, whilst David Gould's work on Bulleid coaches shows S5857 carrying such a strip, as does FK S7615 in Michael Welch's 'Southern Coaches in Colour'. In the case of all these vehicles, there is also a cream strip between the top of the window apertures and the bottom of the lining, which leads me to suspect that a carmine-lining-cream combination above the windows was commonplace on Bulleid vehicles.

Unfortunately I can't find an accurate dimension for the distance between bottom of cornice and top of window aperture. VE's drawings, as reproduced in MRC Planbook 1, suggest to me that this dimension was closer to 3” than 4” - but it could well have been as much as 4”. Assuming the combined width of black and gold lining was standardised at 1 1/8”, that then leaves an aggregate space of between 1 7/8” and 2 7/8” for the two flanking strips of carmine and cream. In Gould's shot of the Tavern car 7894 the width of these seems to be equal to each other above the toplights, suggesting a width for each of the carmine and cream strips of between 15/16” and 1 7/16”, depending on what dimension you think right for the gap between cornice and window top. On this basis, I think I would try to fit equal width strips of carmine and cream above the window apertures and then overlay this with lining centrally upon the boundary between these strips.

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Noel
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Noel » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:22 pm

Brian Haresnape's Railway Liveries: BR Steam 1948-1968 gives a different way of arriving at lining locations. The cream panel extends 1 inch above and below the windows, with the black [3/4 in] and gold [3/8 in] lines beyond that [total 1 1/8 in] in as in Baugh [who gives 2 in for the top carmine band on corridor stock, not 4 in]. The photographs where Bullied stock in crimson and cream is identifiable show no carmine above the windows [also true of Gresley ex-LNER stock] and hence no upper lining band. Photos of ex-LMS stock show an upper crimson band wider than that on any other stock, suggesting that Haresnape is correct, at least for the LMR. It would seem that there were significant variations in regional practice, and even between different works on the same region.

Coaches were only repainted at about five year intervals, and the SR was apparently inclined, where possible, to clean and revarnish rather than repaint, especially if it would be into crimson or crimson and cream. Additionally, the BR scheme did not come into force immediately after nationalisation, so SR green coaches remained visible for several years after 1948.

Incidentally, Baugh is correct about lining non-corridor stock [which should be the same carmine as for corridor stock under BR, not maroon as the colour diagram suggests], as Russell has pictures showing such stock lined out by Swindon. Russell describes several of them as being in BR maroon, which may actually be GW red-brown, as the photos date to no later than the early 1950s. Either way, such lining out seems to have ceased by the end of 1950, suggesting that Swindon was simply continuing previous GW practice.
Noel

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Rod Cameron
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Rod Cameron » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:47 pm

Bit of a minefield this one. Certainly blood & custard Bulleids could have a crimson upper band or no discernible crimson at all - compare for example the photos on pages 153 and 155 of King's Southern Coaches book. King defers to Parkin for chapter and verse on the crimson/cream paint scheme. As I understand it the scheme originally had the extent of the cream band defined by window height; in the case of Mk1s this was specified at 3ft 6 1/2in, leaving equal bands of cream above and below the windows. This policy was changed when the appearance of trains of varied coaches with varied window heights made them into a dog's breakfast. (Maunsells were amongst the worst when the low window sides were left with a broad crimson top band. These also had examples of thin or no discernible crimson band on the low window sides when the policy was changed - no doubt due to local variations in interpretation in the paint shops as already mentioned.)

What Bulleids are you building? According to King, the BRCW-built Bulleids never carried crimson/cream, going straight from as-built malachite to post-56 Southern Region green. It's quite possible this applied to some others.
Rod

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:07 am

Hi All. I'm building/converting a 3 car set 863 {D2123, 2505, 2525 and D2318, 5912} which were built in 1951 and straight into crimson and cream {as far as I can make out}.

I've attached a couple of images taken from the David Gould book on SR coaching stock and it clearly shows the absence of the top crimson band and strips. Sorry from some reason these image wanted to be upside down.
20181201_144858.jpg
20181201_144848.jpg


Looking at the Baugh notes again, it does state the the top crimson strip is 4" and has a asterisk next to it noting "dimensions must be adhered too". This also applies to the black and gold strips. However you have to accept this is applying to Western Region coaches. If this regulation was in forced by other regions ie, Southern which had high windows this would have caused what Rod says a "dogs breakfast" look. So was it better to leave the area above the windows plain cream?

The Bachmann coaches I'm converting, have a space of about 1.25mm {ish} from the cantrail to the top of the window frame, which is about 3" to get the crimson and strips in. Hmmm! Doable as Johns mentions the Tavern cars had a thin strip of crimson plus the strips.

More to ponder on.

All Best

Dave

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Noel
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Noel » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:58 am

Serjt-Dave wrote:Looking at the Baugh notes again, it does state the the top crimson strip is 4" and has a asterisk next to it noting "dimensions must be adhered too"


I presume that you are referring to the coloured diagram? I found the 2 inches figure for corridor coaches on page 7 under "Top lining". It appears that the document we have is not internally consistent.
Noel

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Serjt-Dave » Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:00 pm

Ah yes Noel your correct. My apologies for not reading thoroughly. Mind you the diagram on page 7 doesn't help matters either, took me awhile to get my head around it. LOL.

Dave

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Steve Carter
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Steve Carter » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:04 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote:Thanks Tim, I do have that anyway, it's where I got the measurements form. I did look at the St Merryn layout and they have a Bullied in Blood and Custard without the top strips and crimson {images below}.

Dave
stmerryn06.jpg


Hi Dave

Please don’t make any decisions based on these photos of the Bullieds on St Merryn. Those shown were converted R-T-R Bachmann coaches in ‘blood and custard’ as supplied. These were a ‘temporary’ measure until they were replaced by a suitable Bullied set that was researched and expertly built by Brian Pearce.

The Bullied set we now run are 770-series Type 'L' 3-sets that comprised Set numbers 771 to 793. Each set consisted of two Semi-Open Brake Thirds (SR Diagram No. 2123) and one Corridor Composite (SR Diagram No. 2318). All had 10¼" (narrow) window ventilators. Built December 1946 to December 1947 and therefore in Southern malachite green. BR(SR) repainted a few sets in the experimental plum/spilt milk livery but did not start repaints of existing stock into the standard crimson/cream until Dec 1953. Therefore the liklihood is that most of these sets would still be in the green livery in summer 1954, the period in which St Merryn is portrayed, albeit with BR lettering and numbering.

F7C1119D-5277-4199-AC2E-05B1C5F4C873.jpeg
Set 774 at St Merryn. Photo by Brian Self


The two Diagrams covered several variants, since they covered coaches built up to 1951 which were used in other sets and as loose coaches, but Set No. 774 comprised early variants which have short water tanks and long stepboards. The underframes had two vacuum reservoirs and two brake cylinders. They also had a solid partition between the luggage compartment and the corridor instead of the mesh grille on later coaches.

The two Diagrams covered several variants, since they covered coaches built up to 1951 which were used in other sets and as loose coaches, but Set No. 774 comprised early variants which have short water tanks and long stepboards. The underframes had two vacuum reservoirs and two brake cylinders. They also had a solid partition between the luggage compartment and the corridor instead of the mesh grille on later coaches.

The carcases are predominantly parts from Southern Pride Models (roofs, rigid clear acrylic sides, floors). To each carcase, fully-finished etched brass sides from Comet Models, detailed with hinges, handles, etc., were bonded with high quality double-sided adhesive tape, in an attempt to replicate the continuous bodyside curve.
Bogies consist of Brassmasters CCUs with Southern Pride cosmetic sideframes. Trussing is fashioned from brass L-angle, other underframe details are mainly from Southern Pride, and corridor connections are from Keen Models. Interiors are fashioned from the old Peco printed card sheets.

No passengers are included as the Set No. 774 spends much of its time in the carriage sidings on St Merryn.

We are very grateful to Brian Pearce for these very welcome additions to the St Merryn stock.

Steve
Steve Carter

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Serjt-Dave » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:31 pm

Thanks Steve.

My set 863 is basically the same as your 774 set {which look lovely by the way} other than having the longer water tanks. I'm converting Bachmman Bullied, to which I totally regret starting. I was under the illusion that it would be quicker and easier to convert R-T-R rather than kit build. WRONG, LOL. Having replaced about 80% of the bloody things, and the replacement parts then had to be adjusted to fit. I will never to anymore R-T-R conversions again.

All three bodies are just about to go into the paintshop, I think they will be finished in crimson and cream and not have the crimson and lining at the top for the mo. If anything further info or research comes up to confirm they did have it I'll change them. To be honest I just want them finished and out the way so I can finish my Brassmaster 4F {god help me}.

All Best

Dave

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Serjt-Dave » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:24 pm

Okay the coach bodies are now primed and ready for their top coat {or they will be when it arrives from Precision Paints}. My next question is they do two crimsons, a darker one and what they call faded. Personally I like the faded one but as my period is from Nationalisation to 1956 {ish} but preferring the early 50's, my coaches would have been in service for a couple of years. So would the crimson had faded with in that shorter time?

As always any thoughts and comets welcomed

All Best

Dave

Philip Hall
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Philip Hall » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:12 pm

Crimson and cream seems to appear in photographs in an amazing variety of shades, from a proper deep crimson to a bright rusty looking red. So I think anything you choose will be about right. For a two year old set, I would go for the faded one at least.

I will be very interested to see what you have made of them, because I too was looking at the Bachmann Bulleids, for I have a few, conscious they would involve a great deal of work, not least around the windows. I put them aside for many years. Now that they are going to be retooled to modern standards I am relieved!

Philip

Crepello
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Crepello » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:53 am

Philip Hall wrote:Now that they are going to be retooled to modern standards I am relieved!


... of much moolah - if the LNER Thompsons are anything to go by!

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Serjt-Dave
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Serjt-Dave » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:49 am

Thanks Phillip. I do prefer the faded crimson myself. When you look at period images they always seem to be of the brighter hue. Even the two images I posted earlier in this thread show what seems to be two different shades and they are two new carriages.

Sadly my examples of Bachmman Butchery will not be anything to shout about. I wish I'd just brought comet ones and started from scratch, by the time you've removed all the unwanted mouldings off the body and underframe you as might as well started from scratch anyway. As you have stated about the windows, what to do about glazing them? I brought some Southeastern Finescale glazing sets. They are of course a lot better from what was supplied by Bachmman but they're no brilliant.

Anyway will keep you posted.

All Best

Dave

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Noel
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Noel » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:42 pm

Serjt-Dave wrote:Even the two images I posted earlier in this thread show what seems to be two different shades and they are two new carriages.


If you look carefully at the two pictures the cream is a different shade as well. In reality, of course, the variations are almost certainly down to variations in lighting and/or the type of film and/or the reproduction. Colour photos are a much better guide, although they are also subject to variation for the above reasons. The standard of finish before painting and the undercoat used can also affect the results, as red paints of the era were somewhat translucent.
Noel

Philip Hall
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Re: Blood and Custard

Postby Philip Hall » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:58 pm

Dave, My main gripe about the Bachmann vehicles was the windows and the pronounced chamfer at the edge of the aperture. I discovered that the glazing strip was moulded to the same profile as the sides, so had the idea of sanding down the outside, remaking the (fairly sparse) detail and gluing the glazing hard up against the inside. This would make them a fair bit more flush than before. I’m glad I didn’t start because now I don’t have to do this for the limited amount of Bulleids I need.

Francis, I agree they might turn out to be more expensive than we might be used to, but in comparison to what you would have to pay for a handbuilt example (Rocar, for example) or the hours you would have to put in to get anywhere close (look at the Hornby Maunsells) they will be an unmitigated bargain. That’s providing they do turn out to be as good as the Hornby Maunsells, of course...

Philip


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