Bill Bedford underframe.

jimphillips
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:52 pm

Bill Bedford underframe.

Postby jimphillips » Wed Nov 11, 2020 5:48 pm

Can anybody give me advice/tips/suggestions on how to proceed with the assembly of the Bill Bedford BBUW 0195 LNER 9' steel wagon underframe. Also which wagon or van body kit would be suitable for this u/f?
Thanks in advance.

User avatar
Guy Rixon
Posts: 764
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Bill Bedford underframe.

Postby Guy Rixon » Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:12 pm

It seems to carry the LNER's standard rigging for fitted wagons. That means:

- probably not a pre-grouping vehicle;

- probably not built after the mid '30s, when the wheelbase standard changed to 10';

- probably not built at Shildon, where wooden frames were normal until quite late.

The LNER had quite a range of fitted stock, with more gernal-goods vans being fittted than other kind, IIRC. A standard goods van is good bet.

Some LNER vans were known to be bought from the wagon-building trade, and these, apparently, often had steel frames when the company was still building wood frames.That might help to pin down a batch or sub-type. There was a shift from wooden ends on vans to pressed-steel ends and it's possible that steel frames correlate with steel ends (although I don't know of strong evidence for that). Steel ends became normal later in the company's history.

Daddyman
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:09 pm

Re: Bill Bedford underframe.

Postby Daddyman » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:35 pm

This is what I get from Tatlow 4a and 4B:

Looks like very little: container flats (Parkside kit), and early versions of the 12-ton van if, as Guy says, they were built by outside contractors. There's a 3-Aitch kit of the van, only available second hand, and a discontinued Parkside kit: all the vans in the current Parkside range were built too late; look for a door with a prominent outside frame, but no horizontal frame piece across the middle of the door.
Fruit vans with 9' wheelbases were not built by outside contractors, so had wooden underframes; ditto meat, banana and cattle vans/wagons. 10-ton fish vans (discontinued D&S kit) were, but I've seen no photos of them on steel. Refrigerator vans were built by outside contractors and had steel 9' underframes, but I know of no kit.

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1429
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Bill Bedford underframe.

Postby Noel » Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:13 pm

jimphillips wrote:Can anybody give me advice/tips/suggestions on how to proceed with the assembly of the Bill Bedford BBUW 0195 LNER 9' steel wagon underframe. Also which wagon or van body kit would be suitable for this u/f?


Having looked in Tatlow LNER wagons 4A & 4B, the only possibilities I have found are

Early purpose built Conflats to diagrams 60 and 76, the latter being converted circa WW2 to diagram 166 [which updated the body but didn't alter the chassis]. I don't know enough to be sure, but I think it should be possible to use this chassis with a Parkside Conflat S to produce diagram 166, but that's as far as my knowledge goes.

Refrigerated vans to diagram 21 and Perishables vans to diagram 79. I have no knowledge of kits for these.

Covered vans to diagram 13 and those built to the same diagram for the CLC, all by outside builders. Parkside PC61 is a match for the body, but will need surgery to remove the buffer beams as the kit is for the LNER standard wood underframed version.
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Guy Rixon
Posts: 764
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:40 pm

Re: Bill Bedford underframe.

Postby Guy Rixon » Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:15 pm

I haven't built this underframe kit, but I did build a similar BB underframe that looks to have the same basic design. I'm basing these remarks on the fret image shown on the Eileen's site.

If I'm reading this right, the parts bearing the axleguards locate laterally against the folded-up spring supports and are located fore-and-aft by the headstocks. I'd strongly recommend assembling this bit first, without the solebar overlays and brakes, and trying the spring carriers to see if the suspension moves as it should. If it does then great, but there's a small chance that you'll end up with too little clearance between axleguards for the spring carriers to move freely. In that case, you might need to shim the axleguard parts away from the spring supports. Deeper bearings (Markits) may also help. The other point to check (before adding delicate details) is that nothing fouls the structure when the suspension is at the top of its travel. If there's a problem here it can be probably be fixed by filing out.

I can't see how the solebar overlays are supposed to go. It looks like there's a fold-up bit to represent the bottom flange of the channel solebar, but something subtle is going on at the ends; perhaps that represents the flange on the headstock?

I think the pairs of brake bows can be bent up to be like a flattened Z-shape when seen from the side, such that the middle bit fits above the axle and the bows sit at the correct angles to the horizontal. It's worked like this on some of the BB coach-axleguards. This would be a good aspect to check before soldering.

Look like the brake block/hanger assemblies locate on fold-up tabs, which is nice, but best to check before soldering up that the lateral spacing is for P4, not EM or OO.

The brake assemblies themselves fold up to sandwich the loose, middle fragments of brake block. This works, but I've always found it tricky to get a neat finish. My approach has been to pin the assembly with wire through the hole at the bottom of the hanger, flood with solder along the rubbing face of the block while squeezing the outer parts together, then grind back with a 12mm stone to dress the rubbing face enough to get proper clearance from the wheel. There's a tendency for the solder to fill in the holes for the brake bows. This can be drilled out 0.5mm afterwards and then broached until the stubs on the brake bows will enter; but you need to do this before putting the brake assemblies into the chassis as it's a pig to do afterwards.

Assembling the brake rigging should be straightforward, but if you aren't familiar with the LNER scheme you'll need a diagram. There's one in the single-volume edition of the Tatlow book.
Last edited by Guy Rixon on Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Daddyman
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:09 pm

Re: Bill Bedford underframe.

Postby Daddyman » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:51 am

Noel wrote:Covered vans to diagram 13 and those built to the same diagram for the CLC, all by outside builders. Parkside PC61 is a match for the body, but will need surgery to remove the buffer beams as the kit is for the LNER standard wood underframed version.


Sorry, Noel, I'm not getting this from 4A: Dia.13 is a bogie steel hopper, while the Parkside kit PC61 has the more modern door with the horizontal frame piece which I mentioned above, introduced (on the evidence of the photos in Tatlow) in 1934, at the same time as the shift to 10'-wheelbase underframes. Diagram 14, on the other hand, is a match for a discontinued Parkside and 3-Aitch kits.[EDIT: have checked my early Parkside kit and it has the later door; suspect it's just an early version of PC61]

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1429
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Bill Bedford underframe.

Postby Noel » Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:05 pm

Daddyman wrote:Sorry, Noel, I'm not getting this from 4A: Dia.13 is a bogie steel hopper, while the Parkside kit PC61 has the more modern door with the horizontal frame piece which I mentioned above, introduced (on the evidence of the photos in Tatlow) in 1934, at the same time as the shift to 10'-wheelbase underframes. Diagram 14, on the other hand, is a match for a discontinued Parkside and 3-Aitch kits.[EDIT: have checked my early Parkside kit and it has the later door; suspect it's just an early version of PC61]


Sorry, it was a typo, should have been diagram 17. Parkside did reissue some of their kits; AFAIK this is because the originals were the comparatively basic Kirk kits, so they eventually redid them to their own standards. So far as the door bar is concerned, I accept that the Parkside kit has the later door, and is, as I mentioned, a wooden u/frame version, so the buffer beam will need alteration as well as the door bar. The body is the nearest that I am aware of, though, and I saw the door bar as a straightforward change which can be made before assembly. If not, your options are rather more limited, unless there is a whitemetal or etched brass kit [I don't normally use either so am not familiar with what is available].

Guy Rixon wrote:but if you aren't familiar with the LNER scheme you'll need a diagram. There's one in the single-volume edition of the Tatlow book.


It's in 4A as well.
Regards
Noel

jimphillips
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: Bill Bedford underframe.

Postby jimphillips » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:47 pm

Thanks for all that info all. Also thanks to Guy Rixon for guidance on assembly of the u/f.

User avatar
BryanJohnson
Posts: 125
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:45 pm

Re: Bill Bedford underframe.

Postby BryanJohnson » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:25 pm

A few things to watch out for when assembling the BB chassis:
1) Get a very tight angle when folding the headstocks down. I ended up separating them and refitting.
2) The solebars are tricky. Careful bending is needed to get the bottom channel at 90 degrees to the half-etched solebar details, which is then attached to the main sides. The double holes will help the alignment. This assembly then fits into the slot at the edge of the floor and between the headstocks.
3) If you aren't familiar with the LNER AVB arrangement, then have a look at the Tatlow books.

I've had the same kit with a Parkside PC61 body for a while (BB chassis has £5.50 price tag!) I'll say that the doors were changed during an overhaul in the intervening 25 years since it was built. As one of those built for the CLC, it has the internal shutter in the end. I will need to alter the bottom corners of the body, but fortunately the correct style is easier to represent.

Bryan

jimphillips
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: Bill Bedford underframe.

Postby jimphillips » Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:21 pm

Thanks Bryan.

jimphillips
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:52 pm

Re: Bill Bedford underframe.

Postby jimphillips » Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:30 pm

Received my copy of Peter Tatlows' Pictorial Record of LNER Wagons today, looks excellent, full of photographs of all types of wagons. One more of Mr.Tatlows volumes still to arrive. Thanks for the recommendation Bryan.


Return to “Wagons”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests