Wagon Identity

[Serjt-Dave]

Hi All, I trust that you are all keeping safe and well? I was routing my draws {storage not grundies before anyone asks} looking for some small project to distract me from what I meant to be doing on my layout, when I came across a box of old wagons. Had a quick rummage through {again the box not me grundies} where I found these. I think I brought them off evil bay as part of a job lot. Only problem is I have no idea what they are so I can spruce them up.
Can anyone identify their origins please? They both have 9' wheelbases, the brown one is a plastic kit and the grey one is white metal.

Thanks

Keep Safe

Dave

[Jeremy Good]

Dave,

The first one, the brown one, looks like an Ian Kirk kit for a GWR Dia O13 china clay wagon. The end door and buffers look right for that...

Not sure about the second one.

Jeremy

[Lord Colnago]

Hi Dave,

I agree with Jeremy regarding the origins of the brown wagon. Unless I'm very much mistaken, that end door has been fitted upside down. That, or all of mine are upside down!

John.

[Noel]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, that end door has been fitted upside down

You are right of course; ideally the hinge bar should be somewhat closer to the door as well. The brake gear is wrong [always a potential problem with Kirk kits] as O13 had non-vacuum DCII gear with both levers at the non-tipping end. There were quite a lot of PO china clay wagons used alongside O13, and those had lever brakes, but as they were also unfitted they had the either side type with 4 v-hangers and no cross shaft.

[Noel]

I think the grey wagon is most likely K's; they did some SECR kits, which would account for the lift-link lever, which was a feature of SECR wagons.

[Jeremy Good]

In later years the O13’s were rebuilt to remove DC2 brake gear and replace it with either independent brakes or in other cases 2 or 4 shoe Morton brakes to conform with the requirement to have brake levers at the right hand end on each side. This is detailed in GW Wagons.

There doesn’t appear to be any evidence that yet were ever fitted with vacuum brake gear, unlike the later BR version.

Jeremy

[Guy Rixon]

If the grey wagon is intended for the SECR, then it's probably a model of (SR) diagram D1345, which was the last open design of the Wainwright period. They were 16' o/h on a Fox pressed-steel frame of 9' w/b, 5 planks in the sides and with the vertical braces in the doors and the sheet rail. The brakes and buffers on the model are not as the SECR built the wagons: they came out with Hill's patent brakes and ribbed buffer-stocks. The axleboxes look like a decent representation of SECR P-type.

The lift-link brakes could have been a retrofit during the last years of the SECR, but are more likely a conflation with later SECR designs such as (SR) diagram 1347. The wagon overall is definitely not D1347; the body ironwork is very different, the wheelbase is wrong and the Maunsell-period designs had SECR no.2 axleboxes.

[Noel]

In later years the O13’s were rebuilt to remove DC2 brake gear

True, but not until after 1939, and they had pretty much all gone by 1960. They spent more of their lives with DCII than with the replacements. It is very unlikely that any were ever fitted, as they were old, and Swindon started building their replacements [diagram 1/051] in 1955, initially unfitted, but quickly changing to fitted and retro-fitting the earlier ones, building the last of 875 in 1960.

From the OP's point of view it all depends on what period he models.

[Terry Bendall]

then it's probably a model of (SR) diagram D1345,

Southern Wagons, volume 3 has a drawing of diagram 1345 which shown that as built these wagons had a curved end and it does not show the large bolts (?) at the bottom of the drop down door. Unfortunately there no pictures of any wagons to the diagram.

Terry Bendall

[Guy Rixon]

The large fittings on the wagon door, which are also present further along the sides, look like bobbins for attaching ropes. These are seen clearly in Plate 76 of Southern Wagons v3 (showing a D1347), albeit in a different distribution along the side.

[shipbadger]

The bobbins are effectively two concave discs back to back and are typical of Ashford works. I believe the idea is that the ropes securing the tarpaulin were fixed to these so that the ropes securing any actual load were kept on separate fixings. I had to get a load of these fixings made for some of my 12" to 1' 'modelling'. They continued to be used until after nationalisation as the wagon we rebuilt was produced under a BR lot number.

Tony Comber

[Noel]

David Larkin's "Pre-nationalisation Freight Wagons on British Railways" [Bradford Barton 1977] p20 has a 1960 photo of S19228, an ex-SECR 10T open, which has three remaining round tie cleats, originally to a different pattern [2-1-2] to the model, and wooden end stanchions on horizontal ends, but a steel underframe. It has also been given BR axleboxes at some point. There are significant differences to the model, but quite a few similarities.

[Serjt-Dave]

Hi Guys and thanks for your input. Disappointed that the brown wagon is a GWR one, however, I'm pleased that the grey one is from a more favourable. LOL. I want to get decent replacement chassis/brake gear for them, so if anyone knows what's available please let me know.

My period for my layout is early to mid fifties so certainly the SECR one would be coming towards it's end of service. Ageing wagons is always fun to do. These will just be rake fillers anyway.

Keep Safe

Dave