Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

John Lewis
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Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby John Lewis » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:21 pm

I have purchased one of these models ofan ex-SECR van. It has been produced by 3D printing. I think it is rather good.

Does anyone else have one, and if so do how would you propose compensating/springing it, please?

John Lewis

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Guy Rixon » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:22 am

If replacing the axleguards in this model you'll need to salvage the SECR No.2 axleboxes as, so far as I know, nobody makes separate castings or prints for these.

The model comes with AGW wheels in OO. I suggest just swapping the wheels for P4 and seeing if it runs adequately with fixed suspension. I did this with a pre-production sample and it seems OK, but I haven't a proper layout or test-track to really evaluate it. The production team assure me that the production chassis were checked for squareness.

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Steve Carter
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Steve Carter » Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:11 am

Guy Rixon wrote:
The model comes with AGW wheels in OO. I suggest just swapping the wheels for P4 and seeing if it runs adequately with fixed suspension. I did this with a pre-production sample and it seems OK, but I haven't a proper layout or test-track to really evaluate it. The production team assure me that the production chassis were checked for squareness.


I did this with my two vans. The brakes line up with the P4 wheels a lot better than the OO wheels did! The vans performed well on a test track although I am going to add some extra weight.

These vans are a very good model and I applaud everyone involved in their production. :thumb
Steve Carter

Martin M
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Martin M » Thu Dec 12, 2019 5:15 pm

Steve I agree with you. Just waiting to see if they do the earlier SE&CR version now...

Martin

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Guy Rixon » Thu Dec 12, 2019 7:13 pm

Concerning the SECR No.2 axleboxes: these were a Maunsell-era design of oil-lubricated box and were widely applied to SECR wagons with 3'1" wheels. The No.1 axlebox was from the same period and was used on wagons with 3'6" wheels, but precious few of those were made in Mr. Maunsell's time.

I still think that there's no after-market part available, but the Cambrian Model Rail kits do represent the No.1 boxes.

Would anybody like a printed version of this box? It would not be the CAD from the Rails model as I don't own that IP, but would be redrawn by me from prototype materials that I have on hand. I could sell them through my Shapeways shop at about £8 for a sprue of 30 boxes.

Martin M
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Martin M » Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:12 pm

Guy I am interested in anything SE&CR so yes please. Thanks

Martin

JFS
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby JFS » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:26 pm

John Lewis wrote:I have purchased one of these models ofan ex-SECR van. It has been produced by 3D printing. I think it is rather good.


Can I just check - have you (or anyone else) physically seen it yet please?

EDIT:- ie the production version rather than the pre-production ones

Best Wishes,

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Steve Carter
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Steve Carter » Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:19 pm

JFS wrote:
John Lewis wrote:I have purchased one of these models ofan ex-SECR van. It has been produced by 3D printing. I think it is rather good.


Can I just check - have you (or anyone else) physically seen it yet please?

EDIT:- ie the production version rather than the pre-production ones

Best Wishes,


I have two production ones Howard

2C82B69C-A5DB-4B39-B42A-65D0DC1F65AE.jpeg
Steve Carter

JFS
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby JFS » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:27 pm

Steve Carter wrote:I have two production ones Howard


Hi Steve,

Many thanks for that - any chance of some nice juicy close ups please?

Very interested to see how this technology has come along!

Best Wishes,

John Lewis
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby John Lewis » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:03 pm

My grateful thanks for the replies.

My example is a production example. I have managed to change the wheels for P4 ones, one axle runs very freely, but the other seems tight. Some investigation is called for. One of the brake levers has come loose at the pivot end, but I guess a drop of glue would deal with that.

I am intending to backdate my example by applying some large "SR" transfers and removing the small 'SR' letters. It may be a case of painting them out.

The other problem will be couplings. The model includes moulded on scale(?) hooks, but I do not know if I can drill them for 3 link couplings, and if I did this sucessfully it would not have any springs. The model is fitted with coupling pockets which will need to be removed, but I have not yet investigsted what is keeping them in place - it looks like some kind of rivet which is directly underneath the axles.

I attach a rather poor photo of mine from my phone.
Attachments
Rails SECR Van-1.jpg

John Lewis
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby John Lewis » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:09 pm

Guy

I would be interested in a sprue of those SECR No.2 axleboxes.

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Steve Carter
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Steve Carter » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:47 pm

JFS wrote:
Steve Carter wrote:I have two production ones Howard


Hi Steve,

Many thanks for that - any chance of some nice juicy close ups please?

Very interested to see how this technology has come along!

Best Wishes,


I’ll see what I can do.
In the meantime there are some photos on RMWeb taken by customers that may help Howard?
For example https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... nt=3714288

Steve
Steve Carter

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Guy Rixon » Mon Dec 16, 2019 2:02 pm

John Lewis wrote:My grateful thanks for the replies.
I am intending to backdate my example by applying some large "SR" transfers and removing the small 'SR' letters. It may be a case of painting them out.

The other problem will be couplings. The model includes moulded on scale(?) hooks, but I do not know if I can drill them for 3 link couplings, and if I did this sucessfully it would not have any springs. The model is fitted with coupling pockets which will need to be removed, but I have not yet investigsted what is keeping them in place - it looks like some kind of rivet which is directly underneath the axles.

I attach a rather poor photo of mine from my phone.


If back-dating please beware that some details - absence of roof vents, freighter brakes - are not correct for the period of the early SR livery, or for any SECR livery. The axleboxes are also wrong for some early periods. We know that that these vans were built with vented roofs (Laycock vents on two batches, eros vents on the other), with SECR P-type axleboxes (which are round-bottomed grease boxes, just like those used on many PO wagons, hence the "P" code) and Hill's patent brake rigging (which is an extreme mutation of wagon brakes and nothing like the "freighter" or either-side-independent brakes used later). We know that some surviving vans were rebuilt with freighter brakes, no roof-vents and No.2 axleboxes in the late 1930s, after the livery change to small letters; we don't know if any received the No.2 axleboxes earlier. It's a plausible guess that oil axleboxes could have been fitted by the SECR in the Maunsell period, but there's no actual evidence for this.

The coupling hooks (which are printed, not moulded; nothing is moulded on this model except possibly the coupling pockets) could in principle be drilled for three-link couplings. However, they are decorative features and not intended as working couplings. I would not be surprised if they broke in service if used as practical fittings. That said, Bill Bedford sells printed coupling-hooks and reckons they can be used to couple a train.

IIRC, the coupling pockets are a standard, Dapol part and are screwed, with self-tapping screws, to a mounting post printed as part of the underframe. If I were converting one of these models for different couplings, I would be inclined to cut away the printed mounting post with end nippers, then clean up the remains with a burr in a minidrill. Any mess would then be hidden behind the solebars and I don't think the operation would comprise the rest of the chassis. But's that's a personal, untested, not-endorsed-by-the-manufacturer idea. :)

JFS
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby JFS » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:45 pm

Steve Carter wrote:I’ll see what I can do.


Many thanks Steve. I had seen the RMWeb thread but - to be frank - I was less than overwhelmed by what I saw both in terms of the surface finish and also the striations (for example on the brake lever). I was probably expecting far too much, but then this thing is a long way from inexpensive.

I suffer from the handicap that when it comes to this particular technology, the Emperor looks rather underdressed to me and this does not yet look like the awaited breakthrough - but maybe your photos will put me right?

Best Wishes,

John Lewis
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby John Lewis » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:11 pm

Thank you, Guy, for the helpful back history of these wagons. It is threatening to turn into a bigger project than I had anticipated (as usual :D ).

Does anyone do the correct axleboxes and roof ventilators, please? I think I can sort out the handbrakes (famous last words).

John

seanmcs
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby seanmcs » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:49 am

I just received what might be the end of the last run of these vans. Two SR differently numbered. The finish is really very good, with only small straitions on the brake levers, which should become irrelevant with a bit of rusty paint. For P4 there will be a few steps, including replacing the hooks with Exactoscale and chain.

Maybe the technique became mastered as the production runs progressed.

Sean in Sydney

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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Martin M » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:33 am

I am hearing rumors that there is about to be an announcement regrading the next batch of SE&CR vans and I am hopeful there will be an earlier version that covers the SE&CR version....

Martin

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Guy Rixon » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:21 pm

John Lewis wrote:Thank you, Guy, for the helpful back history of these wagons. It is threatening to turn into a bigger project than I had anticipated (as usual :D ).

Does anyone do the correct axleboxes and roof ventilators, please? I think I can sort out the handbrakes (famous last words).

John


Actual SECR P-type boxes with the right lettering "cast" into the front: no. They are visually very similar to Attocks' boxes, which are available from Mousa (via Shapeways) and possibly from MJT or Wizard.

Roof vents need to be early-SECR eros vents to match the numbers printed on the model. I know what these look like from the Ashford component-drawing, from which I derive this:

Screen Shot 2019-12-18 at 12.09.44.png


I suspect that they are visually different from the better-known eros vents used by the SR on coaches. The late kind is available, the early kind is not AFAIK.

The brake parts are not available anywhere that I know. See illustrated History of Southern Wagons vol 3 for an elevation and a photo, but it's really difficult to work out what goes where from that. There are better drawings in The Engineer from around the time that Mr. Hill filed for his patent. There are also Ashford drawings of the SECR implementation in the NRM collection and in the HMRS collection (the latter not scanned and available for facsimile purchase).

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Guy Rixon » Sat Mar 21, 2020 2:15 pm

The early versions of this vehicle are now announced, including as-built-condition (two variants) in Wainwright livery, Maunsell SECR livery and early-SR livery. See RMweb for the press-release (our forum software doesn't want me to attach the press-release PDF here).

John Lewis
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby John Lewis » Sun Mar 22, 2020 12:05 pm

These vans were built with Hill's patent brake. How long might it have been before these unusual brakes were replaced? WW1?

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:23 pm

Information is sparse, and photos very rare, but our best understanding is that the brakes were changed when the vans were rebuilt in the late 1930s.

If you want models from the newly-announced batch, you need to pre-order RSN as half are sold already.

BTW, John, many thanks for the photos you sent. Without those, I would not have been able to work our how the SE&CR adapted HIll's patent for their stock and the Rails model would be less accurate.

John Lewis
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Re: Rails of Sheffield/Dapol ex-SECR box van 45374

Postby John Lewis » Sun Mar 22, 2020 10:48 pm

Guy,
Thanks, I don't recall a photograph of a wagon in SR livery with Hill's brake though I suspect there is one, somewhere, and thank you for the article you sent me on this brake. I have ordered one of the new batch of models especially to see the brake. :D
It sounds as if I ought to backdate the one I have.

John


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