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Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:40 pm
by Le Corbusier
I wondered if anyone might have any advice on the best way to start learning about private owner wagons? Is there a book, or something similar which might give an overview of the subject. I am aware of Turton's volumes, but these seem to be more of a survey rather than a history or explanation.

If no such thing exists ... some pointers on how to start understanding and unpicking the wagons that might have been seen on the Monsal Dale line circa 1902 would be appreciated.

Just looking for a steer to set me on my way.

Tim

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:58 pm
by bevis
Try Bill Hudson's works if you haven't already found them.
Regards,
Bevis

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:25 pm
by TonyMont
Hi Tim,

You might find this site http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/ interesting and informative, I believe the author is a 2mm modeller but the information is still useful.

Regards, Tony.

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:42 pm
by Le Corbusier
TonyMont wrote:Hi Tim,

You might find this site http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/ interesting and informative, I believe the author is a 2mm modeller but the information is still useful.

Regards, Tony.


Thanks Tony,

That looks really interesting

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:03 am
by Guy Rixon
Oakwood do (did?) a one-volume summary of the field. It's a good introduction and a lot cheaper than the Hudson books. The latter are very good, but volumes 1 & 2 are long out of print and copyright is stuck with an inactive publisher. Last time I saw a pair of these for sale, the offer price was £50.

After that, before buying into the Turton series (which is good), consider getting a volume specific to the area you model. If there is a suitable book for your area, it will be a lot cheaper than £200 of Turton for the same level of coverage.

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:23 am
by Le Corbusier
Guy Rixon wrote:Oakwood do (did?) a one-volume summary of the field. It's a good introduction and a lot cheaper than the Hudson books. The latter are very good, but volumes 1 & 2 are long out of print and copyright is stuck with an inactive publisher. Last time I saw a pair of these for sale, the offer price was £50.

After that, before buying into the Turton series (which is good), consider getting a volume specific to the area you model. If there is a suitable book for your area, it will be a lot cheaper than £200 of Turton for the same level of coverage.


Thanks Guy,

Is the one volume summary the Bill Hudson one as opposed to his 4 volume series?

I have one of the Hudson books in the series and have looked at two of the others ... whilst being fascinating in themselves all the wagons I have seen are later than the turn of the century period I am modelling, and they appear to be more a source series than an overview.

Tim

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:41 am
by petermeyer
Private Owner Wagons from The Gloucester Railway Carriage and Wagon Company Ltd: Montague 1981 OPC includes brief and official histories, alphabetical listings and 665 wagons portrayed.

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:50 am
by Bill Newstead
I find this index published by the Welsh Railways Research Circle very useful. You can search (Ctrl F) by owner's name or location to find the relevant volume of Hudson, Turton etc. Helps you buy only the books you need. The index covers the whole country and is not limited to Wales.

http://www.wrrc.org.uk/download.php?fil ... 202017.pdf

Don't forget the excellent series of articles by the late Chris Crofts in MRJ 12 - 15 if you want to understand how the wagons were constructed.

Good luck

Bill

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:02 pm
by Le Corbusier
Thank you everyone ... this is all really helpful. :thumb

Would be interesting if there was a way of pooling this resource for others?

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:00 am
by Guy Rixon
Le Corbusier wrote:
Guy Rixon wrote:Oakwood do (did?) a one-volume summary of the field. It's a good introduction and a lot cheaper than the Hudson books. The latter are very good, but volumes 1 & 2 are long out of print and copyright is stuck with an inactive publisher. Last time I saw a pair of these for sale, the offer price was £50.

After that, before buying into the Turton series (which is good), consider getting a volume specific to the area you model. If there is a suitable book for your area, it will be a lot cheaper than £200 of Turton for the same level of coverage.


Thanks Guy,

Is the one volume summary the Bill Hudson one as opposed to his 4 volume series?

I have one of the Hudson books in the series and have looked at two of the others ... whilst being fascinating in themselves all the wagons I have seen are later than the turn of the century period I am modelling, and they appear to be more a source series than an overview.

Tim


Yes, the Oakwood book is also by Mr. Hudson. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Private-Owner-Wagons-Bill-Hudson/dp/085361492X for instance.

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:07 am
by andrewnummelin
In addition to the excellent suggestions already made, I’d like to recommend two of my favourites:
Len Tavender, Coal Trade Wagons, 1991, ISBN 0951098713 (out of print)
Tony Watts, Private Owner Wagons from the Ince Waggon & Ironworks Co., 1998, ISBN 0902835041; HMRS £7.

Better value might come from using a library rather than buying: if your local one can’t help then the HMRS has a good selection of items:
https://hmrs.org.uk/resources/library.h ... 6&limit=45
Members of the Society may borrow books by post if getting to the library is too difficult.

(I should mention that I’m the webmaster of the HMRS.)

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:14 pm
by philip-griffiths
Tim

there are some good links given already. Line histories will give you some idea of what was happening for your area you are modelling. In terms of POW, the range is huge, what specifically were you interested in - minerals, tank wagons? POWs were different to

Iain Rice's books are useful in terms of brief backgrounds to the subjects and good sources of information can be found in John Hayes - 4mm coal wagon and Geoff Kent's books on wagon construction.

Considering how much history there is behind for example LMS box vans, this is a deep subject and can be very location specific - for example, variations due to how coal was discharged - in the north east hoppers with floor discharge were ubiquitous while in my own neck of the woods - South Wales - discharge through a tipped wagon using an end door meant that practically all my models have end doors. Also colliery company POWs tended to run in rakes from colliery to customer - London, train company, port, etc.

On thing to remember is the age you are modelling. There are significant dates when standard designs became prevalent. As time progressed the loading weights increased and often the heights of the sides increased also. Then in WWII the war led to the pooling of POWs.

it is a complex subject and you are heavily reliant upon photographic record. but it is a fascinating subject and really interesting.

regards

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:27 pm
by Le Corbusier
philip-griffiths wrote:Tim

there are some good links given already. Line histories will give you some idea of what was happening for your area you are modelling. In terms of POW, the range is huge, what specifically were you interested in - minerals, tank wagons? POWs were different to

Iain Rice's books are useful in terms of brief backgrounds to the subjects and good sources of information can be found in John Hayes - 4mm coal wagon and Geoff Kent's books on wagon construction.

Considering how much history there is behind for example LMS box vans, this is a deep subject and can be very location specific - for example, variations due to how coal was discharged - in the north east hoppers with floor discharge were ubiquitous while in my own neck of the woods - South Wales - discharge through a tipped wagon using an end door meant that practically all my models have end doors. Also colliery company POWs tended to run in rakes from colliery to customer - London, train company, port, etc.

On thing to remember is the age you are modelling. There are significant dates when standard designs became prevalent. As time progressed the loading weights increased and often the heights of the sides increased also. Then in WWII the war led to the pooling of POWs.

it is a complex subject and you are heavily reliant upon photographic record. but it is a fascinating subject and really interesting.

regards


Thanks for the input Philip.

I am looking at the Peak line circa 1902 focussed upon Monsal Dale station. As such Stopping traffic is going to be a mix of local coal delivery and limestone removal. Through trains will be varied .... Coal rakes and empties of course, but also Limestone and spar in abundance I suspect - along with common carrier loads.

First off my aim is to read around the subject in general to form some kind of overview and understanding. Hopefully I will then be able to zero in on suitable stock. I don't want to get too bogged down but hope to end up with believable rakes of wagons to model with a mix of MR and PO stock ... from what I understand, circa 1902 there wouldn't have been many wagons from other railway companies?

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:40 pm
by Noel
Le Corbusier wrote:from what I understand, circa 1902 there wouldn't have been many wagons from other railway companies?


"Common user" arrangements for open wagons didn't start until 1915-7, later for vans. That did mean that wagons loaded from other companies had to be returned immediately to the nearest exchange sidings for that company. So traffic from, e.g. Scotland to the south, would appear in a wagon owned by the company owning the station where it was loaded, and the empty would then have to be returned. Exactly how this would have affected any particular route is difficult to say, but any north-south main line is likely to have seen at least some such vehicles. Probably the only way of looking at possible traffic, in foreign company vehicles or Midland, is by analysing the traffic shown in dated photographs.

Loaded coal traffic for local stations would travel in wagons belonging to local coal merchants, or in wagons of coal factors, or wagons belonging to colliery companies, depending on how the merchants bought their coal. Industrial users' coal could travel in either of the latter two, or their own wagons, or ones belonging to hire companies. If colliery wagons, these could come surprising distances, especially if they were conveying a specialist grade of coal, such as anthracite. Again, analysis of dated photos is probably the only answer.

By later standards, wagons would be quite small, perhaps 6, 8, or possibly 10 tons at the largest. Virtually all would have grease axleboxes. Goods brake vans of that era were commonly 10 ton vehicles, and more than one might be used on gradients where loads required it. As with the locos, all brake vans would be MR.

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:52 pm
by Le Corbusier
Noel wrote:
Le Corbusier wrote:from what I understand, circa 1902 there wouldn't have been many wagons from other railway companies?


"Common user" arrangements for open wagons didn't start until 1915-7, later for vans. That did mean that wagons loaded from other companies had to be returned immediately to the nearest exchange sidings for that company. So traffic from, e.g. Scotland to the south, would appear in a wagon owned by the company owning the station where it was loaded, and the empty would then have to be returned. Exactly how this would have affected any particular route is difficult to say, but any north-south main line is likely to have seen at least some such vehicles. Probably the only way of looking at possible traffic, in foreign company vehicles or Midland, is by analysing the traffic shown in dated photographs.

Loaded coal traffic for local stations would travel in wagons belonging to local coal merchants, or in wagons of coal factors, or wagons belonging to colliery companies, depending on how the merchants bought their coal. Industrial users' coal could travel in either of the latter two, or their own wagons, or ones belonging to hire companies. If colliery wagons, these could come surprising distances, especially if they were conveying a specialist grade of coal, such as anthracite. Again, analysis of dated photos is probably the only answer.

By later standards, wagons would be quite small, perhaps 6, 8, or possibly 10 tons at the largest. Virtually all would have grease axleboxes. Goods brake vans of that era were commonly 10 ton vehicles, and more than one might be used on gradients where loads required it. As with the locos, all brake vans would be MR.

Thanks for the input Noel.

I am sure I read somewhere that on the Monsal Dale line the brake vans were generally the 20T version due to the 1:90 incline. I certainly have a period photo with a 20T attached.

My problem of course is that photos of goods trains circa 1902 are few and far between ... but I keep on searching :thumb

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:40 pm
by allanferguson
It's always worth considering what the traffic would have been, i.e. what industries were served by the line, who were the local coal merchants, etc. You would not likely have seen a Fife Coal Company wagon! (Unless perhaps being delivered from the maker?). Also I think over 90% of PO wagons were for coal or minerals. The HMRS photo catalogue can be a help, too.

Allan F

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:06 am
by philip-griffiths
I found these books from the early 1970s when reviewing the WRRC listing:

The Modeller's Sketchbook of Private Owner Wagons Books 1-3.

The first one had photo I have elsewhere of Nine Mile Point Colliery with Tredegar wagons. Looks an interesting set of books.

Tim - if you are modelling the Edwardian period you could have a real mixture of wagons as the RCH standards influenced later design but there was a variety as someone else has said. I would look at photos all the way down the line from Manchester to Derby to pick out anything from your era that is going to help.

regards

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:30 pm
by Guy Rixon
The Ince Wagon Works book from the HMRS might be of some help. I am away from my book collection so can't check whether it goes early enough. It's a nice book anyway, and has some good facsimiles of the RCH specification drawings.

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:58 pm
by ken kirk
Hi Tim.
I have been an avid collector of PO wagons for many years. As others have said, Bill Hudson's books are very good. I considered them the Rolls Royce of their day. I don't know if you are aware, but Bill wrote a lovely book on the Peak line called "Through Limestone Hills" It was very well researched and includes details of PO wagons that were owned by local Companies.
Here's an Amazon link for you. https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_no ... tone+hills.
Also,the erstwhile "Midland Record" published by Wild Swan have a couple of articles about Rowsley Sidings and its counterpart at the northern end, Gowhole Sidings. These give a good insight into how wagons were dealt with in the steam era. All those trains passed your station and the details of ultimate destinations given for Gowhole makes fascinating reading. I will send more details if you wish and do a search of relevant wagons for you.

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:46 pm
by kelham
The Montague book has too little information ... and too many mistakes. given your area of interest 'Through Limestone Hills' by Bill Hudson ought to be high on your list.


Richard

Re: Private Owner Wagons

Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:18 pm
by Le Corbusier
kelham wrote:The Montague book has too little information ... and too many mistakes. given your area of interest 'Through Limestone Hills' by Bill Hudson ought to be high on your list.


Richard

Hi Richard,

Ive had a copy of this for a while now ... excellent as a source. Most of the private owner wagon info is unfortunately considerably later than 1902. Still extremely useful as background though. A copy of Bill's 'Private Owner Wagons' by Oakwood arrived in the post today so looking forward to some light reading over the weekend. :thumb