Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

John Lewis
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Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby John Lewis » Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:04 pm

I have a D&S kit of a GWR Loriot L wagon. I have got it nearly finished but have come up against a couple of problems

1. What should I do to equip it with chains, shackles etc. I have got some "fine" chain, but presumably I need some rings attached to the wagon floor. Were chains unpainted?

2. The prototype wagon had a wooden planked floor. Was his left unpainted?

Any adviuce would be gratefully received?

John Lewis

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Noel
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby Noel » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:46 pm

John Lewis wrote:What should I do to equip it with chains, shackles etc. I have got some "fine" chain, but presumably I need some rings attached to the wagon floor. Were chains unpainted?


No rings, the end links were attached directly to the securing points, ex-works anyway. See J H Russell's Freight Wagons and Loads etc. Figure 183 which shows G13 42273. The chains and the tensioning screws on the floor are largely visible as well. I don't know about the painting, I'm afraid.

John Lewis wrote: The prototype wagon had a wooden planked floor. Was his left unpainted?


Apart from a period after WW2, standard practice, so far as I know, was to paint all the iron or steelwork inside and out on all wagons, but only the top edge and external face of wooden bodied wagons. The inside face of wooden sides and ends and all floors were unpainted. Any metalwork attached to the floor [as in the end ramps of Loriots] was painted.
Regards
Noel

John Lewis
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby John Lewis » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:58 pm

Hi Noel

Thank you very much for reminding me of that photo. Very helpful.

It appears that there were eyebolts for the chains on the headstocks and some fittings on the tops of the wagon sides.

My guess is that the wooden floor was painted on the top surface, but perhaps not on the under side. I don't think I will paint the underside where it is not visible anyway! And fortunately no one has produced an etched kit for the full brake gear ...

With best wishes

John.

Terry Bendall
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby Terry Bendall » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:01 am

John Lewis wrote:What should I do to equip it with chains, shackles etc.


Ambis Engineering [produce fine chain and I think cosmetic screw operated tensioners. I have scratch built these in the past - a bit fiddly but a nice job to do. Current day practice can of course be seen on road vehicles transporting large loads but I don't know how long this practice has been about. On modern load fixings often the ends of the chains have a hook that will fit through/into a ring on the body work. An alternative is to use a large screw shackle, which can be scratch built if you have the patience .

Terry Bendall

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Noel
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby Noel » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:18 am

John Lewis wrote:My guess is that the wooden floor was painted on the top surface, but perhaps not on the under side


It's your model, so up to you, but my comment was intended to convey that I think floors were unpainted, period, as the Americans say. Certainly I have never seen a colour photo which shows a painted wooden floor [steel floors are another matter] in any wagon in BR days. The exception I referred to after WW2 was that no wooden parts were painted at all on new wagons, owing to a shortage of paint. It may be relevant that the normal practice seems to have been to build the whole wagon, bracing and corrugated ends [for the LMS/LNER designs] and only add the wood components after the metalwork was complete and painted, probably because the railways all separated the metal working and woodworking trades into different shops. The only parts painted subsequently were the bolts and nuts, not always very tidily.

Interpreting black and white photos is more difficult, but seem to show the same practice for all of the big four, and there would have been no particular reason for it to change after nationalisation. For example, Figure 119 in the same book shows the inside of the drop door on a rather tired LNER wagon in 1928; the strapping is painted, but the rather battered wood does not appear to be. The interior of the Roll Wagon in Figure 182 shows very visible graining and knots in the baulks and floorboards, again suggesting they are unpainted. The picture is undated, but the buffers suggest a conversion from one of the pre-grouping wagons.
Regards
Noel

John Lewis
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby John Lewis » Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:56 pm

Thanks Noel,

I was going on the floor appearing darker than the top of the sides, at least at the far end, and looked not much different to the chains, but I suppose it could have been unpainted wood. Does any one do "unpainted wood" paint? :D If the floor had been painted, I doubt if the pant would have lasted very long.

John

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Noel
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby Noel » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:19 pm

John Lewis wrote:I was going on the floor appearing darker than the top of the sides
I suspect bright sunlight or similar being reflected from the paint on a smooth metal surface. This effect would be absent from an unpainted wooden floor, but would be similar from a painted wooden floor, I suggest.
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Noel

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Jol Wilkinson
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby Jol Wilkinson » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:38 am

John Lewis wrote:Thanks Noel,

I was going on the floor appearing darker than the top of the sides, at least at the far end, and looked not much different to the chains, but I suppose it could have been unpainted wood. Does any one do "unpainted wood" paint? :D If the floor had been painted, I doubt if the pant would have lasted very long.

John


John,

PPP do "wood" paint.

Natural wood, P968
Weathered wood, P990

From memory these are various shades of grey. The PPP website doesn't show a colour swatch.

Jol

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David B
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby David B » Thu Nov 09, 2017 8:51 am

Lifecolour do a very good weathered wood set of 6 paints.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby Guy Rixon » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:57 am

John Lewis wrote:Does any one do "unpainted wood" paint?
John


Tamiya do an acrylic paint to represent wooden decks on ships. It's a light tan colour, and might possibly represent unweathered wood.

Weathered wood is easy to do using artists' acrylics. Basically a tinted grey base coat, then a black wash to highlight the planking grooves, then dry-brushed very lightly in black and umber to suggest the grain.

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Noel
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby Noel » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:03 pm

It depends very much on how old the unpainted wood is. I am told that Barry Norman used colours recommended by Martin Welch for wagon interiors; this started with a mixture 4:1:1 white 34, grey 64, natural wood 110 [Humbrol ref nos.], dry brush 1:1:1 mixture of the same colours followed by a wash, diluted with white spirit, 1:1 black 33 and bauxite/red oxide 133.

I think it is fair to say that it is not possible to represent new softwood with one colour owing to its natural variability. If you are looking at a wartime built wagon with who knows what in terms of hardwoods used, then a significantly different starting point may be required. This is also true if you are looking at, for example, an elderly wagon, as with many PO, and some company, vehicles. For this I would suggest a pale grey starting point with dry brushing with successively darker shades of grey, followed by a very thin wash of a darkish brown marked with bauxite rust while wet, over bolt heads and strapping. I have also seen suggestions of starting with the dark grey and dry brushing progressively lighter shades instead.

Whatever methods you use, they should be varied between wagons, at least a little, since wagons were in use, or more often standing in sidings empty, for many years between works visits and a random selection would therefore show noticeable variations between wagons. The use of the wagon also may be relevant; coal wagons did not necessarily weather in the same way as merchandise wagons.

Incidentally, when using the term 'built' I am also including rebodying, which did occur if the existing wood had deteriorated too far.
Regards
Noel

John Lewis
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby John Lewis » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:37 pm

Thanks to everyone who has contributed. Your thoughts on painting wood are very helpful.

John Lewis

billbedford
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby billbedford » Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:02 am

Don't forget that rust from the chains would have stained the wooden floor, especially where the chains were linked up when the wagon was not loaded.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

John Lewis
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Re: Chains for Loriots etc (Lowmacs/well wagons)

Postby John Lewis » Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:38 pm

Good point, Bill. Thank you.

John


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