Modelling shunting manoeuvres

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Tim V
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Modelling shunting manoeuvres

Postby Tim V » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:41 pm

Although shunting is performed on most layouts, it is rarely modelled properly. That is loose shunting or even fly shunting.

To tackle this, I will be showing some ideas for motorised wagons, controlled by DCC. Some will include on-board uncouplers. This should be treated as experimental.

By the way has anyone tackled working brakes on wagons controlled by DCC :?:
Tim V
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David Knight
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Re: Modelling shunting manoeuvres

Postby David Knight » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:17 pm

Working brakes have been done by Ted Scannell. See:

<http://www.clag.org.uk/wagonbrakes.html>

Ted has also used memory wire to activate (actuate?) brakes as well. See:

<http://www.clag.org.uk/memory-brake.html>

I suspect that somewhere in those two articles lies the necessary info to do the job with DCC. :D

HTH

David

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Flymo748
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Re: Modelling shunting manoeuvres

Postby Flymo748 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:47 pm

davknigh wrote:Working brakes have been done by Ted Scannell. See:

Ted has also used memory wire to activate (actuate?) brakes as well. See:
<http://www.clag.org.uk/memory-brake.html>


I've seen that coach working on Green Street at a CLAG night. Seriously impressive smoothness of movement, and whilst we weren't trying specifically for fly shunting, the controllabilty was such that you could have easily managed it.

Ted has definitely BTDTGTTS, so I'd suggest giving him a shout for his ideas, and Nigel Cliffe for the DCC aspects as he's currently[1] doing some very clever things with remote operated AJ couplings on rolling stock.

HTH
Flymo
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nigelcliffe
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Re: Modelling shunting manoeuvres

Postby nigelcliffe » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:22 pm

Flymo748 wrote:Ted has definitely BTDTGTTS, so I'd suggest giving him a shout for his ideas, and Nigel Cliffe for the DCC aspects as he's currently[1] doing some very clever things with remote operated AJ couplings on rolling stock.

HTH
Flymo
[1] and coming to an edition of S4News sometime soon...



My locos and wagon (just the one!) with DCC couplings will, hopefully, be on a small demo at ScaleForum, above the fiddleyard of Laxfield. Its still "hopefully" until the paint has had chance to dry on the scenic work by one of my East Anglian colleagues. I'll probably have the 2mm scale shunter with DCC AJ's in my pocket; if it works in 2mm, there is bags of space in 4mm :) .


I'm fairly certain that my coupling ideas could be used on a powered wagon, its only a matter of space and burying mechanisms; the motor unit for the wagon ought to be the largest component.


The question, to my mind, in a loose shunted wagon is not so much "propulsion" as "controlled braking". I'd expect the propulsion to come from the loco pushing things around, the wagon should have some momentum and reasonably free bearings to keep running, plus a way of applying the brakes. Brakes could be done quite easily with a tiny servo, with the actuator pressing either on the axle or actually moving the brake shoes (possibly too hard for version 1!). A servo can be controlled in multiple ways from a Zimo DCC chip; either from function keys or from throttle position. The memory wire based RC-1 servo which costs around £20 might be suitable.

If, instead, the wagon is motorised (and thus the motor acts as a serious brake if its not under power), then the problem is control of the motor. When attached to a loco its easy; the loco and wagon need to be speed-matched (standard DCC capability) and run as a "consist" (another standard DCC capability). But once the wagon(s) leave the loco, the wagons need to decelerate appropriately for a loose wagon. I have a few slightly mad ideas on how this might work under DCC, but nothing which I feel confident would definitely work.



- Nigel

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Tim V
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Re: Modelling shunting manoeuvres

Postby Tim V » Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:46 pm

Currently I have a fully working motorised wagon, including an AJ at one end. It is planned that this will be the "moving" wagon. I also have a High Level shunting wagon, which I will use as the "brake" to hold the rest of the train out on the main line. Later the plan is to experiment with some simple brakes (which could be sprags passed through the wheels), I will look at some of Ted's ideas for those.

No problem with controlling the motorised truck Nigel, I was planning to use stop on DC. The experiments I've done so far have been OK, but there is a problem with driving two trains at once, a bit of multi tasking is needed, or two drivers :!:
Tim V
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Tim V
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Re: Modelling shunting manoeuvres

Postby Tim V » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:25 pm

Some pictures.
Here is the first motorised wagon, utilising the Branchlines self contained motor and gearbox. This is mounted into a standard pair of W irons. Branchlines nickel siler wheels are used, live to one side for pickup, with wipers on the other. A Lenz direct chip is used in a home made socket. A small relay operates the AJ coupling. The wagon is an ABS kit (unfinished).
IMG_2774.JPG
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IMG_2776.JPG
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To complement this, I'm building a High level flyshunter kit.
IMG_2775.JPG
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Tim V
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nigelcliffe
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Re: Modelling shunting manoeuvres

Postby nigelcliffe » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:35 pm

Interesting pictures, thanks for posting them.

One observation from my experience (fried chips!) is that current can pass from one vehicle to another via the AJ coupling wire. With the W-irons live to one side, this is a potential short circuit from one vehicle to another. At least with your arrangement, the chip outputs are all safely above the solebar inside the wagon body.

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Tim V
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Re: Modelling shunting manoeuvres

Postby Tim V » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:55 pm

Further work on the "Flyshunter". Just getting around to fitting the pickups.
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I'm using a Slaters kit for the body. Note the brakes are "on".
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Mark Tatlow
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Re: Modelling shunting manoeuvres

Postby Mark Tatlow » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:07 pm

Tim,

I am intrigued to see this in action...................

Nigel's comments re the AJ's being live are worthwhile. I managed to gum up Simon de Souza's layout for a while where these had become crossed and sent the whole thing into overload. Oopps!
Mark Tatlow

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Tim V
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Re: Modelling shunting manoeuvres

Postby Tim V » Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:41 pm

IF it works (and that's a big if) you may see it in action at the Birmingham show 19/20 September, Clutton's next outing.

Getting the operators trained may be the biggest hurdle to tackle.
Tim V
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Tim V
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Re: Modelling shunting manoeuvres

Postby Tim V » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:26 pm

Some further work has the decoder in place.
IMG_2841.JPG
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