Identify a wagon...

User avatar
John Donnelly
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Identify a wagon...

Postby John Donnelly » Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:42 pm

Can anyone identify the wagon in the centre of this image. I think it is a Weltrol but I'd like to be certain. If it helps, the photo is taken at South Pelaw Junction on the Tyne Dock - Consett line...

Image

John

User avatar
iak
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:28 am

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby iak » Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:06 pm

Trestrol of some type/diagram?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it....

Perfection is impossible.
But I may choose to serve perfection....
Robert Fripp


https://www.facebook.com/groups/PadgateWorks/

User avatar
BryanJohnson
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:45 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby BryanJohnson » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:35 am

I think the person you need for this is Ian Macdonald who was demonstrating at Scalefour North. He'd designed his own etched parts for these and the even larger transformer wagons.

Bryan

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby Noel » Sun Dec 27, 2015 12:52 pm

It appears to be a 40 ton Trestrol to BR diagram 2/680 or 2/682. The main difference between them was the type of bogie, which is not identifiable from the photo... The LMS and LNER had similar LMS built vehicles, to LMS diagram P122B, on which 2/680 was based, but these did not have the end platforms plated over. It is possible that the wagon just visible bottom right is one of these.

Noel
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 1656
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby Will L » Sun Dec 27, 2015 1:10 pm

Making the assumption that, as the photo is on NER territory it is likely to be a NER wagon, a quick scan through Peter Tatlows tome LNER Wagons V2 revels that the NER only had one bogie well Trestle Wagon. The picture in the book (page 141) shows something very similar but your photo has too much detail obscured to be absolutely sure. This is a Diagram E20 Trestle K, of which there was only ever 1 no 93249. This wagon lasted until 1957 so could fit with your BR era photo. There was a similar LNER wagon, the Tresterol A of which there were several examples, but some of the details of the end of the well look wrong, in particular (if I read the Photo in Talows pictorial History of LNER wagon p 109 right) unlike the your query wagon, the Tresterol A did not have the platform over the bogie plated over, just like the next wagon in your photo in fact. And Like Noel said.

Edited to ref Noel

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby Noel » Sun Dec 27, 2015 4:59 pm

I don't know about NER wagons, Will, but did the Trestle K have oval buffers? Both of the wagons immediately behind the WD have. In any event, the condition of the stock and loco make me think this picture may well be from the early 1960s, but that is only an opinion. The code "Trestle K" would normally indicate a flat wagon with trestles, well wagons with trestles being coded "Trestrol" by the LNER and BR.

Noel
Regards
Noel

User avatar
John Donnelly
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby John Donnelly » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:26 pm

Thanks for the responses so far gents.

John

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 1656
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby Will L » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:24 pm

Noel wrote:I don't know about NER wagons, Will, but did the Trestle K have oval buffers? Both of the wagons immediately behind the WD have. In any event, the condition of the stock and loco make me think this picture may well be from the early 1960s, but that is only an opinion. The code "Trestle K" would normally indicate a flat wagon with trestles, well wagons with trestles being coded "Trestrol" by the LNER and BR.


Trestle K was the NER code, which followed on from the non well wagons coded Testles and the LNER/BR stuck with those codings (didn't they?) The NER does not seem to have started a new code for the one and only well wagon. The more numerous LNER/LMS wagons got coded Trestrol A, but it they had recoded the Trestle K wouoldn't that have got the A slot being the oldest wagon.

I'm not sure if you can really tell what shape the buffer heads are in Johns photo. The wagon nearest has got ovals but the one behind could be round. The photo of the Trestle K shows round heads and the buffer housing in both pictures looks similar. The table in Tatlow which I took as suggesting the wagon lasted until '57 is distinctly cryptic. Even if it went out of use in 57 it could have lingered at the end of a siding for some years after that.

User avatar
John Donnelly
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby John Donnelly » Mon Dec 28, 2015 12:54 am

I've just found out that the photo dates from late 1966.

John

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby Noel » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:17 am

Will L wrote:Trestle K was the NER code, which followed on from the non well wagons coded Testles and the LNER/BR stuck with those codings (didn't they?) The NER does not seem to have started a new code for the one and only well wagon. The more numerous LNER/LMS wagons got coded Trestrol A, but it they had recoded the Trestle K wouoldn't that have got the A slot being the oldest wagon.


I don't know Will, although the GWR for one was fond of reusing extinct codes, so alphabetic order did not tally with date order. There is also the possibility that, if there was only one Trestrol design on the books initially, it was simply coded Trestrol, with no suffix, so that the Trestrol A is the second design. The BR code for the 40 ton version was Trestrol EO, MO or AD depending on the owning region [A = Scottish region].

I don't have Vol 2, only 4A/B, so can't look up the NER wagon. I don't therefore know the date of construction or the capacity. Generally speaking, earlier wagons would have been of a lower capacity, which would show in lighter side girders. [However, the NER had a 40 ton Trestle G [a flat with fishbelly girder u/frame], which is shown in Tatlow's original LNER wagons book.] If the side girders don't help, then the trestle arrangement might. The LNER Trestrol A and, presumably [I don't have a photo of the LMS version but they were built to the same diagram], its LMS sisters had seven supports, all connected, the BR ones six connected in pairs, as in the photo posted here. If that doesn't help then we are stuck for lack of evidence, I think, and down to an assessment of probability

Noel
Regards
Noel

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 1656
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby Will L » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:05 pm

Noel wrote:...I don't have Vol 2, only 4A/B, so can't look up the NER wagon. I don't therefore know the date of construction or the capacity. Generally speaking, earlier wagons would have been of a lower capacity, which would show in lighter side girders. [However, the NER had a 40 ton Trestle G [a flat with fishbelly girder u/frame], which is shown in Tatlow's original LNER wagons book.


According to Tatlow the Trestle K was among the last NER Trestle wagons built, in 1918, with a capacity of 30 tons, length 57ft and tar weight 24.14.0. It's well construction is similar to the Trestrol A with strait sided girders. There are differences in the treatment of the ends of the well and the well girders, the bogies and the beams over the bogie but John's photo doesn't show these areas. The platforms over the bogies are plated over, unlike a Trestrol A, and have a slight angle down over the last part of this platform to meet the top of the buffer beam. John photo isn't entirely clear but could be interpreted as having this angle down. Unfortunately the Tatlow picture of the K shows it loaded so you cant see the trestles. I think it is clear than John's photo isn't a Trestrol A and presumably not the LMS variant. None of the Scottish companies had anything even vaguely similar so if not a Trestle K then what?

User avatar
grovenor-2685
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 8:02 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby grovenor-2685 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:38 pm

so if not a Trestle K then what?

I thought Noel answered that in the 4th post.
Diagram 682 has the plated over ends and the set of 3 trestles as per photo.
See http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/SCVs_DBook_JDF_Issue.pdf
Regards

User avatar
Will L
Posts: 1656
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2008 3:54 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby Will L » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:15 pm

grovenor-2685 wrote:I thought Noel answered that in the 4th post.
Diagram 682 has the plated over ends and the set of 3 trestles as per photo.
See http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/SCVs_DBook_JDF_Issue.pdf

Seeing the diagrams, I agree that diagram 682 looks a likely answer. Interestingly diagram 684 (Trestrol E.N.) is a dead ringer for the Trestle K although the numbers don't match and the length is slightly different.

John Palmer
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:09 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby John Palmer » Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:49 am

So far as I can tell, this arrangement of 3 pairs of trestles originated with the LMS’ 40T bogie trolley appearing on page 122A of the diagram book (see Bob Essery’s Illustrated History of LMS Wagons Vol 2 at p.62). The BR design shown as 882 in the diagram book appears to be a close derivative of this LMS design, observable differences being the plated over end platforms on the BR version, as already noted, and the chain rings being attached to the side of the well girder in the LMS design but on top of that girder in the BR design – which is the position in which they appear in the photograph. I think this strengthens the case for this being the BR design.

The design shown at page 122B of the LMS diagram book, some of which were delivered to the LNER, has significant differences, being a shorter vehicle, at 55' 6" over headstocks, than the 122A design which measured 61' 9" over headstocks.

Incidentally, the NER Trestle K pictured at p.141 of LNER Wagons Vol. 2, to which Will refers, is a bit of an oddity as it’s been branded ‘TRESSLE K’. Wonder if that got corrected by the NER?

User avatar
Noel
Posts: 1130
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby Noel » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:15 pm

I agree I should have referred to LMS diagram p122A not B

Noel
Regards
Noel

User avatar
John Donnelly
Posts: 658
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

Re: Identify a wagon...

Postby John Donnelly » Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:48 pm

Thanks again for all the responses, they have been very helpful.

John


Return to “Wagons”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests