D&S 6 wheel Siphon

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David B
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D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby David B » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:58 pm

Can someone enlighten me, perhaps with a picture, as to how the middle axle bits go together, please?

I know there are alternatives for a 6 wheel chassis (and I might yet use one) but in the meantime I would like to understand the original idea.

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Mike Spence
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby Mike Spence » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:21 pm

David,

What exactly do you require?

Instructions from 525 & 526, I have and can PDF them - not particularly clear but the gist is their on the last page.

Or any other bits of add ons/photographs/or..........

I am right in the middle of unpacking all my GWR stuff as we speak so please ask.

Best wishes,

Mike Spence

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David B
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby David B » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:02 pm

Thanks, Mike. I have got instructions - I can't work them out! There is a carrier and a couple of bearings but the latter have two folds and two slots. I can't work out how they go together and still get the axle at the right level.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:16 pm

As I understand it, the middle axle has very little play w.r.t to the axle cradle. The cradle can move both horizontally and vertically w.r.t the underframe and is restrained in its movement by the wire running along the length of the van, in the tabs that fold down from the floor. The wire is supposed to be springy enough to accommodate both curves and track irregularities; the middle axle is supposed to be lightly sprung onto the track by the wire, and takes part of the body weight. Whether this actually works is debatable.

The springing is only going to work if the wheels are held in the cradle with no vertical play, and the bit in the kit doesn't do a good job of this. If the wheels float in the cradle, then the only force holding them to the track is the weight of the wheelset and flange climbing is almost inevitable. I modified mine with a length of 2mm ID tube inside the cradle, so that the axle centre is fixed w.r.t the cradle.

Another problem, peculiar to P4, is that there isn't much room for side-play between the dummy, outside-centre axleguards. In OO or even EM, there is more space. I put bearings into the outside axleguards of mine, so as to have a locator for the axlebox castings, and this has taken up even more space (the width of two bearing flanges); they'll have to come out.

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David B
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby David B » Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:43 pm

How did you construct the cradle, Guy? How do those three bits go together? I have the rest (wire and so on) sussed.

I came to the same conclusion as you with the bearings in the W irons, so have ground the flange off the bearing leaving the stub to locate the axle box. I didn't bother with a file and used the angle grinder!

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Will L
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby Will L » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:16 pm

On the D&S 6 LNER 6 wheelers I have done, which I presume are very similar to the GWR kits, I didn't think the spring wire put much if any weight on to the middle wheel, so I fit as big a lump of lead as I can to the middle axle cradle just to hold that axle down on the track. I had a couple running reliably in OO and while they have now been converted to P4 I haven't run them regularly, or made any attempt to see if they could be made to run as well as they did in 00. They are all right on plain track, I'm not so sure about points. if/when I do another one I think I would do something rather different.

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Guy Rixon
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby Guy Rixon » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:18 pm

The base of the cradle has two tabs that fold down, so that they point towards the axle. These fit into the slots on the two parts that hold the axles - call these latter "horn plates" for want of a better term. Each horn plate has two slots, a narrow one and a wide one. Mating the narrow slot with the tab sets the horns for OO gauge. The wide slot serves for both EM and P4. For P4, the tab must be hard up against the side of the lot away from the wheel, and for EM it must be at the side of the slot nearest the wheel.

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Mike Spence
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby Mike Spence » Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:29 pm

David B wrote:How did you construct the cradle, Guy? How do those three bits go together? I have the rest (wire and so on) sussed.

I came to the same conclusion as you with the bearings in the W irons, so have ground the flange off the bearing leaving the stub to locate the axle box. I didn't bother with a file and used the angle grinder!


I use Bill Bedford Sprung BBWF520-4GWR 6 Wheel W-Irons - 4mm from Eileen's with 1mm axle in 2mm tube for centre axle. This gives springing and sideplay.

Now which box are they in?

Mike

DougN
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby DougN » Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:34 am

Will L wrote:On the D&S 6 LNER 6 wheelers I have done, which I presume are very similar to the GWR kits, I didn't think the spring wire put much if any weight on to the middle wheel, so I fit as big a lump of lead as I can to the middle axle cradle just to hold that axle down on the track. I had a couple running reliably in OO and while they have now been converted to P4 I haven't run them regularly, or made any attempt to see if they could be made to run as well as they did in 00. They are all right on plain track, I'm not so sure about points. if/when I do another one I think I would do something rather different.


Will can you post a few photos of the arrangement. I say this as this is exactly the problem (other than no instructions) with the 6 wheel NER kit I have been given. I think I might have all these bits to rebuilt the system so the coach could go back to the original design :)
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling

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Dave K
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby Dave K » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:28 am

David B wrote:Can someone enlighten me, perhaps with a picture, as to how the middle axle bits go together, please?

I know there are alternatives for a 6 wheel chassis (and I might yet use one) but in the meantime I would like to understand the original idea.

David,

To quote from one of many TV programs "and here is one I prepared earlier".

thumb_IMG_0259_1024.jpg
Centre axle of D&S low syphon


I think the two little rectangles of lead were included in the kit (which was of D&S vintage) and keep the centre axle in contact with the track and the brass wire not only controls the side play but is also used to pivot the rocking 'W' iron.

Hope this helps :!:

Dave

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David B
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby David B » Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:45 am

Thank you, Dave. That's nearer the mark. How do the two bits go from the cradle to support the axle? There are two fold lines and I am not sure how they should be bent or whether they are fixed on top or underneath the cradle.

The two weight are lumps of white metal in my kit. I think they could do with being beefed up with a couple of extra pieces of lead.

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Will L
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby Will L » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:18 pm

DougN wrote:
Will can you post a few photos of the arrangement. I say this as this is exactly the problem (other than no instructions) with the 6 wheel NER kit I have been given. I think I might have all these bits to rebuilt the system so the coach could go back to the original design :)


Dave K's photo shows it well, I just have an extra pieces of lead sheet on top of the sections shown is Dave's photo. And, as it has been given a minimum effort conversation from OO, the middle axle is packed out with washers.

My ideas as to what I might do instead are pretty much in line with what Mike Spence suggest

DougN
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Re: D&S 6 wheel Siphon

Postby DougN » Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:37 am

Thanks Will,

I will have a look in the kit box as to what is still there! I think this might work a bit better than the previous version.
Doug
Still not doing enough modelling


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